Archive:000/Decarbonize the energy supply - Revision history

Elie: Elie moved page Decarbonize the energy supply to Archive:000/Decarbonize the energy supply without leaving a redirect: Huge_refactor

2024-10-26T20:29:33Z

Elie moved page Decarbonize the energy supply to Archive:000/Decarbonize the energy supply without leaving a redirect: Huge_refactor

← Older revision	Revision as of 16:29, 26 October 2024
(No difference)

Elie: /* Battery-based electric vehicles (EVs) */

2024-09-23T00:33:36Z

Battery-based electric vehicles (EVs)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:33, 22 September 2024
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	*** [[Sodium-ion batteries]] are made from abundant materials - they don't have any mineral-scarcity problem ([[Do we know for sure that sodium-ion batteries avoid mineral scarcity?\|probably]]). But they hold even less of a charge than LFP.		*** [[Sodium-ion batteries]] are made from abundant materials - they don't have any mineral-scarcity problem ([[Do we know for sure that sodium-ion batteries avoid mineral scarcity?\|probably]]). But they hold even less of a charge than LFP.
	**** Sodium-ion batteries are [[status quo of sodium-ion batteries\|quite new to the market]] (in 2024), and the hope is that they'll become a lot cheaper than existing batteries. That way, [[short-range EVs\|EVs could be cheap and durable]], with the only tradeoff being the lack of range.{{qn}} Probably still good enough for city/suburban living.		**** Sodium-ion batteries are [[status quo of sodium-ion batteries\|quite new to the market]] (in 2024), and the hope is that they'll become a lot cheaper than existing batteries. That way, [[short-range EVs\|EVs could be cheap and durable]], with the only tradeoff being the lack of range.{{qn}} Probably still good enough for city/suburban living.
	*** For '''buses''': LFP and sodium-ion are both perfectly fine. The {{p2\|lower ''energy-per-weight''\|i.e. the fact that more battery mass is needed to hold the same amount of electricity}} is not a problem, because buses need extra weight at the bottom anyway for stability.		*** For '''city buses''': LFP and sodium-ion are both perfectly fine. The {{p2\|lower ''energy-per-weight''\|i.e. the fact that more battery mass is needed to hold the same amount of electricity}} is not a problem, because buses need extra weight at the bottom anyway for stability.

	Actions/discussions:		Actions/discussions:
	* [[Next steps for sodium-ion batteries]] {{talk\|Is it true that sodium-ion EVs are available in China already, and just not in North America? If sodium-ion batteries are on the market now, how does their cost compare to lithium-based batteries so far?}}		* [[Next steps for sodium-ion batteries]] {{talk\|Is it true that sodium-ion EVs are available in China already, and just not in North America? If sodium-ion batteries are on the market now, how does their cost compare to lithium-based batteries so far?}}
	* [[How well are EV batteries recycled?]]		* [[How well are EV batteries recycled?]]


	====Hydrogen-powered vehicles====		====Hydrogen-powered vehicles====

Elie at 19:04, 15 September 2024

2024-09-15T19:04:47Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:04, 15 September 2024
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	==Ongoing challenges==		==Ongoing challenges==
	===The renewables approach {{light\|(+ energy storage)}}===		===The renewables approach {{light\|(+ energy storage)}}===
	* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main sources~~{{x\|~~in most parts of the world}}, ~~because~~ [[~~other renewables are~~ limited ~~to very specific geographic regions~~]].		* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main sources (in most parts of the world).
			** Most people don't live near regions suitable for [[hydropower]] or [[geothermal power]]. {{talk\|TODO: link to discussions about what regions they ''are'' suitable}}
			** [[Biofuels]] cause global [[hunger]] and [[deforestation]], unless only [[biomass waste]] is used (which is in [[How much biomass waste is there?\|very limited supply]]).

	* Most solar panels today would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[solar panel minerals\|too many scarce minerals in them]].		* Most solar panels today would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[solar panel minerals\|too many scarce minerals in them]].
	** ''See discussion on'' [[solar panels made of abundant materials\|alternatives to this]].		** ''See discussion on'' [[solar panels made of abundant materials\|alternatives to this]].

	* Batteries [[How much short-term energy storage for solar?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}		* Batteries [[How much short-term energy storage for solar?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}
	** But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[How much seasonal energy storage?\|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]].		** But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[How much seasonal energy storage?\|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]].
	*** ''See discussion on'' [[What could provide enough seasonal energy storage?\|other energy storage types and whether any could provide enough capacity]].		*** ''See discussion on'' [[What could provide enough seasonal energy storage?\|other energy storage types and whether any could provide enough capacity]].

	More discussions:		More discussions:
	* [[Is there enough land to scale up wind power?]] (without causing significant ecological damage)?		* [[Is there enough land to scale up wind power?]] (without causing significant ecological damage)?

Elie: Elie moved page Draft:Decarbonize energy to Decarbonize the energy supply without leaving a redirect: Almost ready for deployment

2024-09-10T21:18:53Z

Elie moved page Draft:Decarbonize energy to Decarbonize the energy supply without leaving a redirect: Almost ready for deployment

← Older revision	Revision as of 17:18, 10 September 2024
(No difference)

Elie at 21:15, 10 September 2024

2024-09-10T21:15:50Z

Elie: /* Ongoing challenges */

2024-09-09T03:45:38Z

Ongoing challenges

Elie: /* Vehicles {{light|- possible options}} */

2024-09-09T03:17:24Z

Vehicles {{light|- possible options}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:17, 8 September 2024
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	====Hydrogen-~~fueled~~ vehicles====		====Hydrogen-powered vehicles====
	* [[?\|Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles]] would be unsustainable to scale up, because of the [[?\|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk\|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[?\|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}		* [[?\|Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles]] would be unsustainable to scale up, because of the [[?\|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk\|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[?\|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}
	* [[?\|Hydrogen combustion vehicles]] don't have this problem, but their fuel-efficiency is lower.{{qn}} {{talk\|How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk\|Discussion needed: How much hydrogen would have to be stored at any given time, in such a scenario (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than the "renewables + energy storage" approach. I need to write a page explaining why.}}		* [[?\|Hydrogen combustion vehicles]] don't have this problem, but their fuel-efficiency is lower.{{qn}} {{talk\|How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk\|Discussion needed: How much hydrogen would have to be stored at any given time, in such a scenario (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than the "renewables + energy storage" approach. I need to write a page explaining why.}}

	====Ammonia-~~fueled~~ vehicles====		====Ammonia-powered vehicles====
	''This wiki currently needs more research:''<small>		''This wiki currently needs more research:''<small>
	* How does ammonia compare to hydrogen in terms of:		* How does ammonia compare to hydrogen in terms of:

Elie: /* Hydrogen-fueled vehicles */

2024-09-09T03:13:00Z

Hydrogen-fueled vehicles

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:13, 8 September 2024
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	====Hydrogen-fueled vehicles====		====Hydrogen-fueled vehicles====
	* Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles would be unsustainable to scale up, because of the [[?\|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk\|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[?\|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}		* [[?\|Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles]] would be unsustainable to scale up, because of the [[?\|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk\|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[?\|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}
	* Hydrogen combustion vehicles don't have this problem, but their fuel ~~economy (~~efficiency) is lower.{{qn}} {{talk\|How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk\|Discussion needed: How much hydrogen would have to be stored at any given time, in such a scenario (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than the "renewables + energy storage" approach. I need to write a page explaining why.}}		* [[?\|Hydrogen combustion vehicles]] don't have this problem, but their fuel-efficiency is lower.{{qn}} {{talk\|How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk\|Discussion needed: How much hydrogen would have to be stored at any given time, in such a scenario (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than the "renewables + energy storage" approach. I need to write a page explaining why.}}

	====Ammonia-fueled vehicles====		====Ammonia-fueled vehicles====

Elie: /* Hydrogen-fueled vehicles */

2024-09-09T03:10:35Z

Hydrogen-fueled vehicles

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:10, 8 September 2024
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	====Hydrogen-fueled vehicles====		====Hydrogen-fueled vehicles====
	* Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles would be unsustainable to scale up, because of the [[?\|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk\|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[?\|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}		* Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles would be unsustainable to scale up, because of the [[?\|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk\|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[?\|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}
	* Hydrogen combustion vehicles don't have this problem, but their fuel economy (efficiency) is lower.{{qn}} {{talk\|		* Hydrogen combustion vehicles don't have this problem, but their fuel economy (efficiency) is lower.{{qn}} {{talk\|How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk\|Discussion needed: How much hydrogen would have to be stored at any given time, in such a scenario (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than the "renewables + energy storage" approach. I need to write a page explaining why.}}
	How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk\|Discussion needed: How much hydrogen would have to be stored at any given time, in such a scenario (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than the "renewables + energy storage" approach. I need to write a page explaining why.}}

	====Ammonia-fueled vehicles====		====Ammonia-fueled vehicles====

Elie at 03:05, 9 September 2024

2024-09-09T03:05:33Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:05, 8 September 2024
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	How to produce enough [[?\|energy]] (for the world) without burning [[fossil fuels]]?		How to produce enough [[?\|energy]] (for the world) without burning [[fossil fuels]]?
	==Ongoing challenges==		==Ongoing challenges==
	===The {{(~~}}renewables~~ + energy storage{{)}} ~~approach~~===		===The renewables approach {{light\|(+ energy storage)}}===
	* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main sources, because [[?\|other renewables are limited to very specific geographic regions]].		* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main sources, because [[?\|other renewables are limited to very specific geographic regions]].
	* Batteries [[?\|might be enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[?\|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]]. See discussion on [[?\|~~whether any~~ other energy storage types could be enough~~]].~~		* Most solar panels today would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[?\|too many scarce minerals in them]].
	* Most solar panels today would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[?\|too many scarce minerals in them]]. See discussion on [[?\|alternatives]].		** ''See discussion on'' [[?\|alternatives to this]].
	More discussions		* Batteries [[?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}
	~~{{talk\|TODO~~: ~~People also have other concerns about renewables and energy storage. I need to direct readers to pages that address those concerns.}}~~		** But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[?\|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]].
			*** ''See discussion on'' [[?\|other energy storage types and whether any could provide enough capacity]].
			More discussions:
	* [[?\|Is there enough land to scale up wind power]] (without causing significant [[habitat loss\|ecological damage]])?		* [[?\|Is there enough land to scale up wind power]] (without causing significant [[habitat loss\|ecological damage]])?


	===The nuclear approach===		===The nuclear approach===
	Considering the different types of nuclear power, it seems that [[?\|'''thorium''' power]] is the one with the least problems:		Considering the different types of nuclear power, it seems that [[?\|'''thorium''' power]] is the one with the least problems. Here's a comparison:
	~~<!--tab name="See table" collapsed-->~~
	{\|class='wikitable'		{\|class='wikitable'
	!rowspan='2' \|Type of nuclear power		!rowspan='2' \|Type of nuclear power
Line 40:		Line 43:
	\|Almost none		\|Almost none
	\|-		\|-
	\|[[Fusion]] (not viable yet)		\|[[Fusion]] <span style="background:#F66">(not viable yet)</span>
	\|Abundant		\|Abundant
	\|Low risk		\|Low risk
Line 47:		Line 50:
	\|colspan=4\|{{minor\|^ For more details, follow these links in the leftmost column.}}		\|colspan=4\|{{minor\|^ For more details, follow these links in the leftmost column.}}
	\|}		\|}
	~~<!--/tab-->~~

	Actions / discussions / next steps:		Actions / discussions / next steps:
Line 53:		Line 55:
	* [[?\|Would small (shipping-container-sized) thorium reactors be viable?]]		* [[?\|Would small (shipping-container-sized) thorium reactors be viable?]]

	~~===Vehicles===~~
	~~{{minor\|''(electric and/or hydrogen and/or ammonia)''}}~~

	====Battery electric vehicles====		===Vehicles {{light\|- possible options}}===
	* Most EVs today use [[?\|~~NMC-type~~ lithium-ion batteries]] ~~- but~~ [[?\|~~scaling these up is~~ unsustainable]] due to the amount of '''cobalt''' in them.		====Battery-based electric vehicles (EVs)====
	* [[?\|~~LFP batteries~~]] ~~are cobalt-free, but~~ hold ~~somewhat~~ less of a charge (i.e. the vehicle gets less range). LFP batteries are still lithium-based~~, and lithium~~ scarcity [[?\|would be somewhat a problem]] but not as bad as cobalt.		* Most EVs today use [[?\|lithium-ion batteries (NMC type)]]. Scaling these up is [[?\|'''unsustainable''' due to the amount of '''cobalt''' in them]].
	* [[?\|Sodium-ion batteries]] are made from abundant materials - they don't have any mineral-scarcity problem ([[?\|probably]]). But they hold even less of a charge than LFP. [[?\|~~Sodium-ion~~ EVs]] ~~are still usable~~, ~~but their~~ range ~~isn't great~~.{{qn}} ~~[[Cheap short-range EVs/Market research\|Might~~ still be good enough]] for ~~a lot of people, [[Sodium-ion batteries~~/~~Cost\|if the EV is cheap enough]]~~.		** Best alternatives [[?\|so far]] hold less of a charge (i.e. the vehicle gets less {{p2\|range\|"Range" refers to the distance the vehicle can travel after 1 full charge.}}). {{talk\|TODO: Add to this page a simple comparison between NMC, LFP and sodium-ion, in terms of typical expected EV range.}}
	* For '''buses''', LFP and sodium-ion are both perfectly fine. The lower energy-density is not a problem, because buses need extra weight at the bottom anyway for stability. ~~<!-- explain better? -->~~		*** [[?\|LFP batteries]] are cobalt-free but still lithium-based. Lithium scarcity [[?\|would be somewhat a problem]] but not as bad as cobalt scarcity.
			*** [[?\|Sodium-ion batteries]] are made from abundant materials - they don't have any mineral-scarcity problem ([[?\|probably]]). But they hold even less of a charge than LFP.
			**** Sodium-ion batteries are [[?\|quite new to the market]] (in 2024), and the hope is that they'll become a lot cheaper than existing batteries. That way, [[?\|EVs could be cheap and durable]], with the only tradeoff being the lack of range.{{qn}} Probably still good enough for city/suburban living.
			*** For '''buses''', LFP and sodium-ion are both perfectly fine. The {{p2\|lower energy-density\|i.e. the fact that more battery mass is needed to hold the same amount of energy}} is not a problem, because buses need extra weight at the bottom anyway for stability.

	Actions/discussions:		Actions/discussions:
	* [[?\|Next steps for sodium-ion batteries]] {{talk\|Is it true that sodium-ion EVs are available in China already, and just not in North America? If sodium-ion batteries are on the market now, how does their cost compare to lithium-based batteries so far?}}		* [[?\|Next steps for sodium-ion batteries]] {{talk\|Is it true that sodium-ion EVs are available in China already, and just not in North America? If sodium-ion batteries are on the market now, how does their cost compare to lithium-based batteries so far?}}
	* [[?\|How well are EV batteries recycled?]]		* [[?\|How well are EV batteries recycled?]]


	====Hydrogen-fueled vehicles====		====Hydrogen-fueled vehicles====
	* Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles would be unsustainable to scale up, because of the [[?\|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk\|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[?\|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}		* Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles would be unsustainable to scale up, because of the [[?\|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk\|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[?\|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}
	* Hydrogen combustion vehicles don't have this problem, but their fuel economy (efficiency) is lower.{{qn}} {{talk\|How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk\|Discussion needed: How much hydrogen would have to be stored at any given time, in such a scenario (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than the "renewables + energy storage" approach. I need to write a page explaining why.}}		* Hydrogen combustion vehicles don't have this problem, but their fuel economy (efficiency) is lower.{{qn}} {{talk\|
			How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk\|Discussion needed: How much hydrogen would have to be stored at any given time, in such a scenario (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than the "renewables + energy storage" approach. I need to write a page explaining why.}}

	====Ammonia-fueled vehicles====		====Ammonia-fueled vehicles====
	This wiki needs more research ~~on this~~:		''This wiki currently needs more research:''<small>
	~~{{pn-block\|~~		* How does ammonia compare to hydrogen in terms of:
	How does ammonia compare to hydrogen in terms of:		** Production energy-efficiency
	* Production energy-efficiency		** Fuel cell energy-efficiency
	* Fuel cell energy-efficiency		** Catalyst metals required{{qn}} in ammonia production, and in ammonia fuel cells
	* Catalyst metals required ~~for~~ ammonia production and ~~for~~ fuel cells		** Storage (mass of materials required per unit of energy stored)</small>
	* Storage (materials required per unit of energy)
	}}
	==More / See also==		==More / See also==
	{{empty}}		{{empty}}
			{{talk\|TODO: People also have other concerns about renewables and energy storage. I need to direct readers to pages that address those concerns.}}
			{{talk\|Maybe title this page "[[Decarbonize the energy supply]]"?}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:04, 15 September 2024
Line 2:		Line 2:
	==Ongoing challenges==		==Ongoing challenges==
	===The renewables approach {{light\|(+ energy storage)}}===		===The renewables approach {{light\|(+ energy storage)}}===
	* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main sources~~{{x\|~~in most parts of the world}}, ~~because~~ [[~~other renewables are~~ limited ~~to very specific geographic regions~~]].		* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main sources (in most parts of the world).
			** Most people don't live near regions suitable for [[hydropower]] or [[geothermal power]]. {{talk\|TODO: link to discussions about what regions they ''are'' suitable}}
			** [[Biofuels]] cause global [[hunger]] and [[deforestation]], unless only [[biomass waste]] is used (which is in [[How much biomass waste is there?\|very limited supply]]).

	* Most solar panels today would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[solar panel minerals\|too many scarce minerals in them]].		* Most solar panels today would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[solar panel minerals\|too many scarce minerals in them]].
	** ''See discussion on'' [[solar panels made of abundant materials\|alternatives to this]].		** ''See discussion on'' [[solar panels made of abundant materials\|alternatives to this]].

	* Batteries [[How much short-term energy storage for solar?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}		* Batteries [[How much short-term energy storage for solar?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}
	** But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[How much seasonal energy storage?\|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]].		** But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[How much seasonal energy storage?\|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]].
	*** ''See discussion on'' [[What could provide enough seasonal energy storage?\|other energy storage types and whether any could provide enough capacity]].		*** ''See discussion on'' [[What could provide enough seasonal energy storage?\|other energy storage types and whether any could provide enough capacity]].

	More discussions:		More discussions:
	* [[Is there enough land to scale up wind power?]] (without causing significant ecological damage)?		* [[Is there enough land to scale up wind power?]] (without causing significant ecological damage)?

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:15, 10 September 2024
Line 1:		Line 1:
	How to produce enough ~~[[?~~\|energy]] (for the world) without burning [[fossil fuels]]?		How to produce enough {{p2\|energy\|This includes more than just status-quo electricity consumption. It also includes everything it would take to replace fossil fuels in vehicles and in industries.}} (for the world) without burning [[fossil fuels]]?
	==Ongoing challenges==		==Ongoing challenges==
	===The renewables approach {{light\|(+ energy storage)}}===		===The renewables approach {{light\|(+ energy storage)}}===
	* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main sources{{x\|in most parts of the world}}, because [[?\|other renewables are limited to very specific geographic regions]].		* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main sources{{x\|in most parts of the world}}, because [[other renewables are limited to very specific geographic regions]].
	* ~~[[?\|~~Most solar panels today]] would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[?\|too many scarce minerals in them]].		* Most solar panels today would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[solar panel minerals\|too many scarce minerals in them]].
	** ''See discussion on'' [[?\|alternatives to this]].		** ''See discussion on'' [[solar panels made of abundant materials\|alternatives to this]].
	* Batteries [[?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}		* Batteries [[How much short-term energy storage for solar?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}
	** But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[?\|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]].		** But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[How much seasonal energy storage?\|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]].
	*** ''See discussion on'' [[?\|other energy storage types and whether any could provide enough capacity]].		*** ''See discussion on'' [[What could provide enough seasonal energy storage?\|other energy storage types and whether any could provide enough capacity]].
	More discussions:		More discussions:
	* [[?\|Is there enough land to scale up wind power]] (without causing significant ~~[[habitat loss\|~~ecological damage]])?		* [[Is there enough land to scale up wind power?]] (without causing significant ecological damage)?


	===The nuclear approach===		===The nuclear approach===
	Considering the different types of nuclear power, it seems that ~~[[?\|~~'''thorium''' ~~power]]~~ is the one with the least problems. Here's a comparison:		Considering the different types of nuclear power, it seems that '''[[thorium power]]''' is the one with the least problems. Here's a comparison:

	{\|class='wikitable'		{\|class='wikitable'
Line 52:		Line 52:

	Actions / discussions / next steps:		Actions / discussions / next steps:
	* [[?\|Why isn't thorium power a thing yet?]]		* [[Why isn't thorium power a thing yet?]]
	* [[?\|Would small (shipping-container-sized) thorium reactors be viable?]]		* [[Would small (shipping-container-sized) thorium reactors be viable?]]


	===Vehicles {{light\|- possible options}}===		===Vehicles {{light\|- possible options}}===
	====Battery-based electric vehicles (EVs)====		====Battery-based electric vehicles (EVs)====
	* Most EVs today use [[?\|lithium-ion batteries (NMC type)]]. Scaling these up is [[?\|'''unsustainable''' due to the amount of '''cobalt''' in them]]. {{talk\|Need to mention 3 issues about cobalt: Child labor, scarcity, and the possibility of mining the ocean floor (since conventional mining wouldn't be able to produce enough to make all cars electric). All this would be even worse if cobalt isn't fully recovered in EV battery recycling.}}		* Most EVs today use [[lithium-ion batteries (NMC type)]]. Scaling these up is [[How much cobalt if all vehicles were electric (NMC lithium-ion)?\|'''unsustainable''' due to the amount of '''cobalt''' in them]]. {{talk\|Need to mention 3 issues about cobalt (put this on the linked page maybe): Child labor, scarcity, and the possibility of mining the ocean floor (since conventional mining wouldn't be able to produce enough to make all cars electric). All this would be even worse if cobalt isn't fully recovered in EV battery recycling.}}
	** Best alternatives ([[?\|so far]]) hold somewhat less of a charge (i.e. the vehicle gets less {{p2\|range\|"Range" refers to the distance the vehicle can travel after 1 full charge.}}). {{talk\|TODO: Add to this page a simple comparison between NMC, LFP and sodium-ion, in terms of typical expected EV range.}}		** Best alternatives ([[types of EV batteries\|so far]]) hold somewhat less of a charge (i.e. the vehicle gets less {{p2\|range\|"Range" refers to the distance the vehicle can travel after 1 full charge.}}). {{talk\|TODO: Add to this page a simple comparison between NMC, LFP and sodium-ion, in terms of typical expected EV range.}}
	*** [[?\|LFP batteries]] are cobalt-free but still lithium-based. Lithium scarcity [[?\|would be somewhat a problem]] but not as bad as cobalt.		*** [[LFP batteries]] are cobalt-free but still lithium-based. Lithium scarcity [[How much lithium if all vehicles were electric (LFP batteries)?\|would be somewhat a problem]] but not as bad as cobalt.
	*** [[?\|Sodium-ion batteries]] are made from abundant materials - they don't have any mineral-scarcity problem ([[?\|probably]]). But they hold even less of a charge than LFP.		*** [[Sodium-ion batteries]] are made from abundant materials - they don't have any mineral-scarcity problem ([[Do we know for sure that sodium-ion batteries avoid mineral scarcity?\|probably]]). But they hold even less of a charge than LFP.
	**** Sodium-ion batteries are [[?\|quite new to the market]] (in 2024), and the hope is that they'll become a lot cheaper than existing batteries. That way, [[?\|EVs could be cheap and durable]], with the only tradeoff being the lack of range.{{qn}} Probably still good enough for city/suburban living.		**** Sodium-ion batteries are [[status quo of sodium-ion batteries\|quite new to the market]] (in 2024), and the hope is that they'll become a lot cheaper than existing batteries. That way, [[short-range EVs\|EVs could be cheap and durable]], with the only tradeoff being the lack of range.{{qn}} Probably still good enough for city/suburban living.
	*** For '''buses''', LFP and sodium-ion are both perfectly fine. The {{p2\|lower energy-~~density~~\|i.e. the fact that more battery mass is needed to hold the same amount of ~~energy~~}} is not a problem, because buses need extra weight at the bottom anyway for stability.		*** For '''buses''': LFP and sodium-ion are both perfectly fine. The {{p2\|lower ''energy-per-weight''\|i.e. the fact that more battery mass is needed to hold the same amount of electricity}} is not a problem, because buses need extra weight at the bottom anyway for stability.

	Actions/discussions:		Actions/discussions:
	* [[?\|Next steps for sodium-ion batteries]] {{talk\|Is it true that sodium-ion EVs are available in China already, and just not in North America? If sodium-ion batteries are on the market now, how does their cost compare to lithium-based batteries so far?}}		* [[Next steps for sodium-ion batteries]] {{talk\|Is it true that sodium-ion EVs are available in China already, and just not in North America? If sodium-ion batteries are on the market now, how does their cost compare to lithium-based batteries so far?}}
	* [[?\|How well are EV batteries recycled?]]		* [[How well are EV batteries recycled?]]


	====Hydrogen-powered vehicles====		====Hydrogen-powered vehicles====
	* [[?\|Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles]] would be unsustainable to scale up, because of the [[?\|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk\|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[?\|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}		* [[Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles]] would be unsustainable to scale up, because of the [[PGMs required for hydrogen production vs for fuel cell vehicles\|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk\|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[PGMs required for hydrogen production vs for fuel cell vehicles\|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}
	* [[?\|Hydrogen combustion vehicles]] don't have this problem, but their fuel-efficiency is lower.{{qn}} {{talk\|How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk\|Discussion needed: Estimate: How much hydrogen would have to be stored (stocked) at any given time, for the supply chain to work (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than what it would take to smooth out the seasonality of renewables - I need to write a page explaining why.}}		* [[Hydrogen combustion vehicles]] don't have this problem, but their fuel-efficiency is lower.{{qn}} {{talk\|How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk\|Discussion needed: Estimate: How much hydrogen would have to be stored (stocked) at any given time, for the supply chain to work (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than what it would take to smooth out the seasonality of renewables - I need to write a page explaining why.}}

	====Ammonia-powered vehicles====		====Ammonia-powered vehicles====
	''This wiki currently needs more research:''<small>		''This wiki currently needs more research:''<small style="color:#777">
	* How does ammonia compare to hydrogen in terms of:		* How does ammonia compare to hydrogen in terms of:
	** Production energy-efficiency		** Production energy-efficiency

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:45, 8 September 2024
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	==Ongoing challenges==		==Ongoing challenges==
	===The renewables approach {{light\|(+ energy storage)}}===		===The renewables approach {{light\|(+ energy storage)}}===
	* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main sources, because [[?\|other renewables are limited to very specific geographic regions]].		* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main sources{{x\|in most parts of the world}}, because [[?\|other renewables are limited to very specific geographic regions]].
	* Most solar panels today would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[?\|too many scarce minerals in them]].		* [[?\|Most solar panels today]] would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[?\|too many scarce minerals in them]].
	** ''See discussion on'' [[?\|alternatives to this]].		** ''See discussion on'' [[?\|alternatives to this]].
	* Batteries [[?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}		* Batteries [[?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}
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	===Vehicles {{light\|- possible options}}===		===Vehicles {{light\|- possible options}}===
	====Battery-based electric vehicles (EVs)====		====Battery-based electric vehicles (EVs)====
	* Most EVs today use [[?\|lithium-ion batteries (NMC type)]]. Scaling these up is [[?\|'''unsustainable''' due to the amount of '''cobalt''' in them]].		* Most EVs today use [[?\|lithium-ion batteries (NMC type)]]. Scaling these up is [[?\|'''unsustainable''' due to the amount of '''cobalt''' in them]]. {{talk\|Need to mention 3 issues about cobalt: Child labor, scarcity, and the possibility of mining the ocean floor (since conventional mining wouldn't be able to produce enough to make all cars electric). All this would be even worse if cobalt isn't fully recovered in EV battery recycling.}}
	** Best alternatives [[?\|so far]] hold less of a charge (i.e. the vehicle gets less {{p2\|range\|"Range" refers to the distance the vehicle can travel after 1 full charge.}}). {{talk\|TODO: Add to this page a simple comparison between NMC, LFP and sodium-ion, in terms of typical expected EV range.}}		** Best alternatives ([[?\|so far]]) hold somewhat less of a charge (i.e. the vehicle gets less {{p2\|range\|"Range" refers to the distance the vehicle can travel after 1 full charge.}}). {{talk\|TODO: Add to this page a simple comparison between NMC, LFP and sodium-ion, in terms of typical expected EV range.}}
	*** [[?\|LFP batteries]] are cobalt-free but still lithium-based. Lithium scarcity [[?\|would be somewhat a problem]] but not as bad as cobalt ~~scarcity~~.		*** [[?\|LFP batteries]] are cobalt-free but still lithium-based. Lithium scarcity [[?\|would be somewhat a problem]] but not as bad as cobalt.
	*** [[?\|Sodium-ion batteries]] are made from abundant materials - they don't have any mineral-scarcity problem ([[?\|probably]]). But they hold even less of a charge than LFP.		*** [[?\|Sodium-ion batteries]] are made from abundant materials - they don't have any mineral-scarcity problem ([[?\|probably]]). But they hold even less of a charge than LFP.
	**** Sodium-ion batteries are [[?\|quite new to the market]] (in 2024), and the hope is that they'll become a lot cheaper than existing batteries. That way, [[?\|EVs could be cheap and durable]], with the only tradeoff being the lack of range.{{qn}} Probably still good enough for city/suburban living.		**** Sodium-ion batteries are [[?\|quite new to the market]] (in 2024), and the hope is that they'll become a lot cheaper than existing batteries. That way, [[?\|EVs could be cheap and durable]], with the only tradeoff being the lack of range.{{qn}} Probably still good enough for city/suburban living.
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	====Hydrogen-powered vehicles====		====Hydrogen-powered vehicles====
	* [[?\|Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles]] would be unsustainable to scale up, because of the [[?\|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk\|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[?\|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}		* [[?\|Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles]] would be unsustainable to scale up, because of the [[?\|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk\|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[?\|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}
	* [[?\|Hydrogen combustion vehicles]] don't have this problem, but their fuel-efficiency is lower.{{qn}} {{talk\|How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk\|Discussion needed: How much hydrogen would have to be stored at any given time, ~~in such a scenario~~ (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than the "renewables ~~+ energy storage" approach.~~ I need to write a page explaining why.}}		* [[?\|Hydrogen combustion vehicles]] don't have this problem, but their fuel-efficiency is lower.{{qn}} {{talk\|How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk\|Discussion needed: Estimate: How much hydrogen would have to be stored (stocked) at any given time, for the supply chain to work (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than what it would take to smooth out the seasonality of renewables - I need to write a page explaining why.}}

	====Ammonia-powered vehicles====		====Ammonia-powered vehicles====