Archive:000/Electric vehicles/Fossil fuel powered - Revision history

Elie: Elie moved page Electric vehicles/Fossil fuel powered to Archive:000/Electric vehicles/Fossil fuel powered without leaving a redirect: Huge_refactor

2024-10-26T20:29:39Z

Elie moved page Electric vehicles/Fossil fuel powered to Archive:000/Electric vehicles/Fossil fuel powered without leaving a redirect: Huge_refactor

← Older revision	Revision as of 16:29, 26 October 2024
(No difference)

Elie: /* Short answer */

2023-10-16T02:12:55Z

Short answer

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:12, 15 October 2023
Line 4:		Line 4:
	<big>'''Yes.'''</big>		<big>'''Yes.'''</big>

	The carbon emissions, compared to a ~~gas~~ car, are approximately:		The carbon emissions, compared to a gasoline car, are approximately:
	* 135% for coal power plants		* 135% for coal power plants
	* 89% for ''older'' natural gas power plants {{light\|(more common)}}		* 89% for ''older'' natural gas power plants {{light\|(more common)}}

Elie: Elie moved page Electric vehicles/fossil fuel powered to Electric vehicles/Fossil fuel powered: we capitalizing subpages now

2023-10-16T02:11:48Z

Elie moved page Electric vehicles/fossil fuel powered to Electric vehicles/Fossil fuel powered: we capitalizing subpages now

← Older revision	Revision as of 22:11, 15 October 2023
(No difference)

Elie at 05:47, 4 April 2023

2023-04-04T05:47:38Z

@@ Line 123: / Line 123: @@
 |<nowiki>Top Numbers Driving America's Gasoline Demand</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
 https://www.api.org/news-policy-and-issues/blog/2022/05/26/top-numbers-driving-americas-gasoline-demand</nowiki>
 }}
 {{dp

Elie at 05:36, 4 April 2023

2023-04-04T05:36:10Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:36, 4 April 2023
Line 2:		Line 2:

	==Short answer==		==Short answer==
			<big>'''Yes.'''</big>

	~~'''Yes.'''~~		The carbon emissions, compared to a gas car, are approximately:
			* 135% for coal power plants
	The carbon emissions ~~are '''about the same''' as~~ gas ~~cars~~, ~~if the electricity is generated by~~		* 89% for ''older'' natural gas power plants {{light\|(more common)}}
	* coal power plants		* 56% for ''newer'' natural gas power plants {{light\|(less common)}}
	* ''~~simple~~'' natural gas power plants

	~~For~~ ''~~advanced~~'' natural gas power plants~~, which are more efficient, best-case carbon emissions are about '''half''' of what they'd be from driving a gas car.~~

	==Long answer==		==Long answer==
Line 146:		Line 144:
	}}		}}

	''For a gasoline car {{light\|(typical ~~amount{{x\|using US-based statistic for lack of other data}} of driving~~)}}:''		''For a gasoline car'' {{light\|(typical usage)}}:
	{{calc		{{calc
	\|average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time / car.fuel_economy * gasoline.ghg_by_energy		\|average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time / car.fuel_economy * gasoline.ghg_by_energy
	\|tonnes/year		\|tonnes/year
	\|~~usage_emissions_if_gasoline~~		\|usage_emissions_if_gasoline_car
	}}		}}


	''For an EV charged by coal power plants {{light\|(same amount of driving as above)}}:''		''For an EV charged by '''coal''' power plants'' {{light\|(same amount of driving as above)}}:
	{{calc		{{calc
	\|average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time / electric_car.fuel_economy_equivalent * coal.ghg_by_energy / coal_power_plant.efficiency / (100% - power_grid.losses) / li_ion.charge_discharge_efficiency		\|average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time / electric_car.fuel_economy_equivalent * coal.ghg_by_energy / coal_power_plant.efficiency / (100% - power_grid.losses) / li_ion.charge_discharge_efficiency
	\|tonnes/year		\|tonnes/year
	\|~~usage_emissions_if_ev_coal~~		\|usage_emissions_if_EV_coal
	}}		}}


	''For an EV charged by natural gas power plants {{light\|(same amount of driving)}}:''		''For an EV charged by '''natural gas''' power plants'' {{light\|(same amount of driving)}}:
	{{calc		{{calc
	\|average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time / electric_car.fuel_economy_equivalent * (natural_gas.ghg_by_energy + natural_gas.fugitive_ghg_by_energy) / natural_gas_power_plant.efficiency / (100% - power_grid.losses) / li_ion.charge_discharge_efficiency		\|average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time / electric_car.fuel_economy_equivalent * (natural_gas.ghg_by_energy + natural_gas.fugitive_ghg_by_energy) / natural_gas_power_plant.efficiency / (100% - power_grid.losses) / li_ion.charge_discharge_efficiency
	\|tonnes/year		\|tonnes/year
	\|~~usage_emissions_if_ev_natural_gas~~		\|usage_emissions_if_EV_natural_gas
	}}		}}


	''For an EV charged by ''advanced'' {{light\|(combined-cycle type)}} natural gas power plants {{light\|(same amount of driving)}}:		''For an EV charged by advanced {{light\|(combined-cycle type)}} natural gas power plants'' {{light\|(same amount of driving)}}:
	{{calc		{{calc
	\|average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time / electric_car.fuel_economy_equivalent * (natural_gas.ghg_by_energy + natural_gas.fugitive_ghg_by_energy) / natural_gas_combined_cycle_power_plant.efficiency / (100% - power_grid.losses) / li_ion.charge_discharge_efficiency		\|average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time / electric_car.fuel_economy_equivalent * (natural_gas.ghg_by_energy + natural_gas.fugitive_ghg_by_energy) / natural_gas_combined_cycle_power_plant.efficiency / (100% - power_grid.losses) / li_ion.charge_discharge_efficiency
	\|tonnes/year		\|tonnes/year
	\|~~usage_emissions_if_ev_advanced_natural_gas~~		\|usage_emissions_if_EV_advanced_natural_gas
	}}		}}


	'''Battery emissions''' <!-- not technically a heading. we don't want mediawiki to generate a table of contents. -->		'''Battery production emissions''' <!-- not technically a heading. we don't want mediawiki to generate a table of contents. -->

	So far, we still haven't counted the environmental impact of ''making'' an electric car, which is significantly more than for a gasoline-powered car.		So far, we still haven't counted the environmental impact of ''making'' an electric car, which is significantly more than for a gasoline-powered car.

	For simplicity sake, let's ~~count the emissions of making the batteries, and~~ assume that ~~making~~ the ~~rest of the car would take roughly the same emissions as making a~~ gasoline~~-powered vehicle: {{x\|Technically~~, ~~the assumption is that the~~ emissions ''divided by lifespan'' ~~are about the same~~. ~~Gasoline vehicles are~~ more complex than batteryless ~~EVs~~, but also ~~have~~ a longer lifespan.}}:		For simplicity sake, let's assume that ''batteries'' account for the entire difference between electric cars and gasoline cars, in terms of GHG emissions of ''production'' divided by vehicle ''lifespan''. {{x\|A gasoline vehicle is a bit more complex than a batteryless EV, but the former also has a longer lifespan.}}

	{{dp		{{dp
Line 211:		Line 209:

	'''''Now, for the final comparison:'''''		'''''Now, for the final comparison:'''''

	{{calc		{{calc
	\|~~usage_emissions_if_ev_coal~~ + battery_emissions		\|usage_emissions_if_EV_coal + battery_emissions
	\|% ~~usage_emissions_if_gasoline~~		\|% usage_emissions_if_gasoline_car
	}}		}}

	{{calc		{{calc
	\|~~usage_emissions_if_ev_natural_gas~~ + battery_emissions		\|usage_emissions_if_EV_natural_gas + battery_emissions
	\|% ~~usage_emissions_if_gasoline~~		\|% usage_emissions_if_gasoline_car
	}}		}}

	{{calc		{{calc
	\|~~usage_emissions_if_ev_advanced_natural_gas~~ + battery_emissions		\|usage_emissions_if_EV_advanced_natural_gas + battery_emissions
	\|% ~~usage_emissions_if_gasoline~~		\|% usage_emissions_if_gasoline_car
	}}		}}

	Thus, with coal power, emissions are worse than driving a gasoline-powered car. But for ''advanced'' natural gas power plants, emissions are about half. In either case, this doesn't count the other environmental impacts {{light\|(non-CO<sub>2</sub>)}} of mining lithium & cobalt.		Thus, with coal power, emissions are ''worse'' than driving a gasoline-powered car. But for ''advanced'' natural gas power plants, emissions are about ''half''. In either case, this doesn't count the other environmental impacts {{light\|(non-CO<sub>2</sub>)}} of mining lithium & cobalt.

	Maybe there would be a good case for fossil-fuel-electricity-powered vehicles if [[carbon capture and storage]] could be fully & safely applied to the power plants.		Maybe there would be a good case for fossil-fuel-electricity-powered vehicles if [[carbon capture and storage]] could be fully & safely applied to the power plants.

Elie: Simplified the calculations

2023-04-04T04:58:20Z

Simplified the calculations

Show changes

Elie: Accounted for the different GHG of different fuels. I still plan to refactor the calculations so the steps are less awkward.

2023-04-04T02:55:04Z

Accounted for the different GHG of different fuels. I still plan to refactor the calculations so the steps are less awkward.

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:55, 3 April 2023
Line 5:		Line 5:
	'''Yes.'''		'''Yes.'''

	The carbon emissions are '''~~almost exactly~~ the same''' ~~for~~ electricity generated by		The carbon emissions are '''about the same''' as gas cars, if the electricity is generated by
	* coal power plants		* coal power plants
	* ''simple'' natural gas power plants		* ''simple'' natural gas power plants

	For ''advanced'' natural gas power plants, which are more efficient, best-case carbon emissions are ~~still more than~~ '''half''' of what they'd be from driving a gas car.		For ''advanced'' natural gas power plants, which are more efficient, best-case carbon emissions are about '''half''' of what they'd be from driving a gas car.

	==Long answer==		==Long answer==
Line 102:		Line 102:
	What is the environmental impact of lithium batteries? - Changeit ...</nowiki><br /><nowiki>		What is the environmental impact of lithium batteries? - Changeit ...</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
	changeit.app › blog › 2021-03-26-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries </nowiki>		changeit.app › blog › 2021-03-26-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries </nowiki>
			}}
			{{dp
			\|<nowiki>coal.ghg_by_energy</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>95.35 kg / million btu</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>CO2 emissions of burning coal</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/co2_vol_mass.php</nowiki>
	}}		}}
	{{dp		{{dp
Line 108:		Line 114:
	\|<nowiki>CO2 emissions of burning gasoline</nowiki>		\|<nowiki>CO2 emissions of burning gasoline</nowiki>
	\|<nowiki>https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/co2_vol_mass.php</nowiki>		\|<nowiki>https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/co2_vol_mass.php</nowiki>
			}}
			{{dp
			\|<nowiki>usa.natural_gas.fugitive_ghg</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>176.1 million tonnes / year</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>Greenhouse gas CO2eq of fugitive methane leaks from all natural gas infrastructure in the USA</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			Inventory of U.S. Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Sinks: 1990-2014</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/inventory-us-greenhouse-gas-emissions-and-sinks-1990-2014</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			2016 Complete Report (PDF)</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			Using data from 2014</nowiki>
			}}
			{{dp
			\|<nowiki>usa.natural_gas.energy</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>27.9 quadrillion btu / year</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>U.S. energy consumption from natural gas combustion only</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			Inventory of U.S. Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Sinks: 1990-2014</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/inventory-us-greenhouse-gas-emissions-and-sinks-1990-2014</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			2016 Complete Report (PDF)</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			Datapoint was found on page 115, from pie chart and line graph, using data from 2014</nowiki>
			}}
			{{dp
			\|<nowiki>natural_gas.fugitive_ghg_by_energy</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>usa.natural_gas.fugitive_ghg / usa.natural_gas.energy</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>Fugitive emissions (CO2eq) of natural gas, per unit energy</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>Average based on US datapoints.</nowiki>
			}}
			{{dp
			\|<nowiki>natural_gas.ghg_by_energy</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>53.07 kg / million btu</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>CO2 emissions of burning natural gas</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>Does not include the fugitive methane emissions from unburned fuel. Those vary by how the gas is burned.</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/co2_vol_mass.php</nowiki>
	}}		}}
	{{dp		{{dp
Line 148:		Line 188:
	''Now compare for the gasoline a non-electric car would burn, on average:''		''Now compare for the gasoline a non-electric car would burn, on average:''
	{{calc		{{calc
	\|average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time * gasoline.ghg_by_energy / car.fuel_economy		\|gasoline.ghg_by_energy * average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time / car.fuel_economy
	\|tonnes / year		\|tonnes / year
	\|gasoline_ghg		\|gasoline_ghg
Line 155:		Line 195:
	''Now, for coal power plants charging EVs, same amount of driving:''		''Now, for coal power plants charging EVs, same amount of driving:''
	{{calc		{{calc
	\|average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time * gasoline.ghg_by_energy / fuel_economy_if_coal		\|coal.ghg_by_energy * average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time / fuel_economy_if_coal
	\|tonnes / year		\|tonnes / year
	\|coal_ghg		\|coal_ghg
	\|
	~~\|Imprecision note: {{x\|This currently uses <tt>gasoline.ghg_by_energy</tt> when it should use <tt>coal.ghg_by_energy</tt>. The differences are minor though.}}~~
	}}		}}

	''Now, for advanced natural gas power plants charging EVs, same amount of driving:''		''Now, for advanced natural gas power plants charging EVs, same amount of driving:''
	{{calc		{{calc
	\|average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time * gasoline.ghg_by_energy / fuel_economy_if_advanced_natural_gas		\|(natural_gas.ghg_by_energy + natural_gas.fugitive_ghg_by_energy) * average_us_vehicle.mileage_by_time / fuel_economy_if_advanced_natural_gas
	\|tonnes / year		\|tonnes / year
	\|advanced_natural_gas_ghg		\|advanced_natural_gas_ghg
	\|
	\|Imprecision note: {{x\|This currently uses <tt>gasoline.ghg_by_energy</tt> when it should use <tt>(natural_gas.ghg_by_energy + natural_gas.fugitive_ghg_by_energy)</tt>. The differences are minor though.}}
	}}		}}

Line 197:		Line 233:
	}}		}}

	Thus, emissions are ~~about the same for coal as~~ gasoline-powered ~~cars~~. ~~Emissions are only a bit better~~ for ''advanced'' natural gas power plants. ~~Also~~ this doesn't count the other environmental impacts {{light\|(non-CO<sub>2</sub>)}} of mining lithium & cobalt.		Thus, with coal power, emissions are worse than driving a gasoline-powered car. But for ''advanced'' natural gas power plants, emissions are about half. In either case, this doesn't count the other environmental impacts {{light\|(non-CO<sub>2</sub>)}} of mining lithium & cobalt.

	<!-- TODO: redo this with more precision: coal.ghg_by_energy and natural_gas.ghg_by_energy? but then what about fugitive emissions? maybe make a datapoint "natural_gas.fugitive_ghg_by_energy" that factors it in -->		<!-- TODO: redo this with more precision: coal.ghg_by_energy and natural_gas.ghg_by_energy? but then what about fugitive emissions? maybe make a datapoint "natural_gas.fugitive_ghg_by_energy" that factors it in -->

Elie: Added more detail, but didn't account for the differences of GHG of each fuel yet.

2023-04-04T01:50:21Z

Added more detail, but didn't account for the differences of GHG of each fuel yet.

Show changes

Elie at 05:23, 22 January 2023

2023-01-22T05:23:15Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:23, 22 January 2023
Line 1:		Line 1:
	If you charge an [[electric vehicles\|electric car]] with electricity that was generated by [[fossil fuels]], is it as bad for the environment as driving a gas car?		If you charge an [[electric vehicles\|electric car]] with electricity that was generated by [[fossil fuels]], is it '''as bad''' for the environment as driving a gas car?

	Short answer: '''Yes.'''		Short answer: '''Yes.'''
Line 56:		Line 56:
	''For natural gas power plants'':		''For natural gas power plants'':

	Some have the same efficiency as coal power plants (33%). Results would be about the same as above.		Some have the same efficiency as coal power plants (33%). Results would be about the same as above. {{x\|Although in theory, coal and natural gas have different GHG emissions per unit energy (which we didn't factor in, and maybe we should for best precision) - in practice, they're about the same, due to [[natural gas#fugitive emissions]]. Both are close enough to gasoline, for the purpose of the calculations on this page.}}

	''Other'' natural gas power plants (the more advanced "combined-cycle" type) are more efficient: up to 60%:		''Other'' natural gas power plants (the more advanced "combined-cycle" type) are more efficient: up to 60%:
Line 75:		Line 75:
	In this case (electric car + advanced natural gas power), we do in fact cut our emissions in half. But this doesn't apply to older, simpler natural gas power plants.		In this case (electric car + advanced natural gas power), we do in fact cut our emissions in half. But this doesn't apply to older, simpler natural gas power plants.

	<small>A note on precision: {{x\|In theory, coal and natural gas have different GHG emissions per unit energy (which we didn't factor in, and maybe we should for best precision). But in practice, they're about the same, due to [[natural gas#fugitive emissions]]. Both are close enough to gasoline, for the purpose of the calculations above.}}</small>

			So far, we still haven't counted the environmental impact of ''making'' an electric car, which is significantly more than for a gasoline-powered car.{{qn}}
	~~But so~~ far, we still haven't counted the environmental impact of ''making'' an electric car, which is significantly more than for a gasoline-powered car.{{qn}}
	* Note: This varies by the ''type'' of batteries used.<!-- TODO: bring in data from other pages?: energy to manufacture batteries; minerals involved -->		* Note: This varies by the ''type'' of batteries used.<!-- TODO: bring in data from other pages?: energy to manufacture batteries; minerals involved -->

	When that's factored in, there's probably no benefit to having an electric car in the coal-power scenario, and only ''moderate'' benefit in the advanced-natural-gas-power scenario.		When that's factored in, there's probably no benefit to having an electric car in the coal-power scenario, and only ''moderate'' benefit in the advanced-natural-gas-power scenario.
	<!--		<!--
	TALK: add scenario where vehicles are powered by hydrogen gas made from fossil fuels?		TALK: add scenario where fuel-cell vehicles are powered by hydrogen gas made from fossil fuels?
	or should that go elsewhere?		or should that go elsewhere?
	-->		-->

Elie at 05:11, 22 January 2023

2023-01-22T05:11:18Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:11, 22 January 2023
Line 56:		Line 56:
	''For natural gas power plants'':		''For natural gas power plants'':

	Some have the same efficiency as coal power plants (33%). ~~Others~~ (the more advanced "combined-cycle" type) are more efficient: up to 60%:		Some have the same efficiency as coal power plants (33%). Results would be about the same as above.

			''Other'' natural gas power plants (the more advanced "combined-cycle" type) are more efficient: up to 60%:
	{{dp		{{dp
	\|<nowiki>natural_gas_combined_cycle_power_plant.efficiency</nowiki>		\|<nowiki>natural_gas_combined_cycle_power_plant.efficiency</nowiki>
Line 71:		Line 73:
	}}		}}

	In this case (electric car + advanced natural gas power), we do in fact cut our emissions in half.		In this case (electric car + advanced natural gas power), we do in fact cut our emissions in half. But this doesn't apply to older, simpler natural gas power plants.

	<small>A note on precision: {{x\|In theory, coal and natural gas have different GHG emissions per unit energy (which we didn't factor in, and maybe we should for best precision). But in practice, they're about the same, due to [[natural gas#fugitive emissions]]. Both are close enough to gasoline, for the purpose of the calculations above.}}</small>		<small>A note on precision: {{x\|In theory, coal and natural gas have different GHG emissions per unit energy (which we didn't factor in, and maybe we should for best precision). But in practice, they're about the same, due to [[natural gas#fugitive emissions]]. Both are close enough to gasoline, for the purpose of the calculations above.}}</small>
Line 77:		Line 79:

	But so far, we still haven't counted the environmental impact of ''making'' an electric car, which is significantly more than for a gasoline-powered car.{{qn}}		But so far, we still haven't counted the environmental impact of ''making'' an electric car, which is significantly more than for a gasoline-powered car.{{qn}}
			* Note: This varies by the ''type'' of batteries used.<!-- TODO: bring in data from other pages?: energy to manufacture batteries; minerals involved -->

	When that's factored in, there's probably no benefit to having an electric car in the coal-power scenario, and only ''moderate'' benefit in the advanced-natural-gas-power scenario.		When that's factored in, there's probably no benefit to having an electric car in the coal-power scenario, and only ''moderate'' benefit in the advanced-natural-gas-power scenario.
	~~You can confirm or deny this hypothesis~~ by ~~adding more data to this page.~~		<!--
			TALK: add scenario where vehicles are powered by hydrogen gas made from fossil fuels?
			or should that go elsewhere?
			-->
	==See also==		==See also==
			* [[Calc:If all vehicles were electric]]
	* [[Public transit]]		* [[Public transit]]
	* [[Walkability]]		* [[Walkability]]