Archive:000/Fuel cell vehicles - Revision history

Elie: Elie moved page Fuel cell vehicles to Archive:000/Fuel cell vehicles without leaving a redirect: Huge_refactor

2024-10-26T20:29:43Z

Elie moved page Fuel cell vehicles to Archive:000/Fuel cell vehicles without leaving a redirect: Huge_refactor

← Older revision	Revision as of 16:29, 26 October 2024
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Elie at 19:50, 1 March 2024

2024-03-01T19:50:44Z

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Elie: /* Rare minerals in the fuel cell */

2023-01-16T17:22:18Z

Rare minerals in the fuel cell

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:22, 16 January 2023
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	Inside a fuel cell, there are surfaces coated in a thin layer of platinum, palladium, rhodium, and/or iridium. These are called ''platinum-group metals'' (PGMs) and are extremely scarce. PGMs are needed as a catalyst to make the hydrogen and oxygen to react properly.		Inside a fuel cell, there are surfaces coated in a thin layer of platinum, palladium, rhodium, and/or iridium. These are called ''platinum-group metals'' (PGMs) and are extremely scarce. PGMs are needed as a catalyst to make the hydrogen and oxygen to react properly.

	The same metals are also in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter catalytic converters] of gasoline and diesel vehicles, but in lesser quantities. A catalytic converter has about 2 grams of PGMs{{x\|2 grams for a typical car; large trucks have proportionally more}}, while a fuel cell car has 30 to 60 grams{{x\|Some scientists are working on reducing this amount, but it's hard to say how much progress can (or will) be made.}}.<!-- TODO: ~~add links to some of~~ that ~~research. Replace {{x}} with {{p}} and put~~ the ~~links inside. --><!-- TODO: make a proper template for wikipedia links~~ -->		The same metals are also in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter catalytic converters] in gasoline and diesel vehicles, but in lesser quantities. A catalytic converter has about 2 grams of PGMs{{x\|2 grams for a typical car; large trucks have proportionally more}}, while a fuel cell car has 30 to 60 grams{{x\|Some scientists are working on reducing this amount, but it's hard to say how much progress can (or will) be made.}}.<!-- TODO: find the source that I got the '30 to 60 grams' from; add citation -->

	If all vehicles{{x\|Is that too extreme a scenario? Then go with 'only half of all vehicles' and consider the numbers below to be the ''total'' PGM demand, assuming that an equal amount of PGMs are also needed for hydrogen production.}} were fuel cell-based,		If all vehicles{{x\|Is that too extreme a scenario? Then go with 'only half of all vehicles' and consider the numbers below to be the ''total'' PGM demand, assuming that an equal amount of PGMs are also needed for hydrogen production.}} were fuel cell-based,
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	\|years pgm.mine_production		\|years pgm.mine_production
	}}		}}
	That's a long time - [[climate change\|too long]]. Then again, suppose the mining industry were to hire 10 times as many people {{x\|due to economics perhaps, if fuel cell vehicles ''did'' become a major market}}, could it all be mined 10 times faster? Does mining work that way, or are there other bottlenecks?{{rn}} <!--Some companies would certainly get rich.-->		That's a long time - [[climate change\|too long]]. Then again, suppose the mining industry were to hire 10 times as many people{{x\|due to economics perhaps, if fuel cell vehicles ''did'' become a major market}}, could it all be mined 10 times faster? Does mining work that way, or are there other bottlenecks?{{rn}}<!--Some companies would certainly get rich either way.-->

	<small>Keep in mind that a similar amount of PGMs would ''also'' be needed for green hydrogen production.</small>		<small>Keep in mind that a similar amount of PGMs would ''also'' be needed for green hydrogen production.</small>
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	* How many human labor hours would it take to mine this much?		* How many human labor hours would it take to mine this much?
	* How much dirt would have to be dug out, and what would be the environmental impact?		* How much dirt would have to be dug out, and what would be the environmental impact?
	If the answers are bleak, then the only hope is in designing fuel cells that contain no more PGMs than a catalytic converter. Research?		If the answers are bleak, then the only hope is in designing fuel cells that contain no more PGMs than a catalytic converter ([[Research:Reduce mineral content of fuel cells\|research?]]).
	<!--		<!--
	Ways to maybe estimate how much labor is involved in mining PGMs:		Ways to maybe estimate how much labor is involved in mining PGMs:
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	- if that's not available, then: look at the price of platinum or palladium. Assume the average worker is paid $4/hour or something (is that an accurate international average?) and that 1/3 of the metal price is due to worker wages (the other 2/3 being capital costs and company profits).		- if that's not available, then: look at the price of platinum or palladium. Assume the average worker is paid $4/hour or something (is that an accurate international average?) and that 1/3 of the metal price is due to worker wages (the other 2/3 being capital costs and company profits).
	-->		-->

	==See also==		==See also==
	* [[Hydrogen combustion vehicles]]		* [[Hydrogen combustion vehicles]]
	* [[Green hydrogen]]		* [[Green hydrogen]]

Elie at 16:26, 16 January 2023

2023-01-16T16:26:11Z

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Elie: Created page with "Fuel cell electric vehicles, or FCEVs for short, are vehicles powered by hydrogen gas. The fuel cell component takes in hydrogen (H₂) and oxygen (O₂ from the air), and produces electricity to power the motor. The only exhaust is water vapor (H₂O). ==Viability== It's '''uncertain''' whether this can be scaled up enough to replace even half of gasoline-powered vehicles. Potential issues to be dealt with: {|class="wikitable" |#In..."

2023-01-15T22:19:29Z

Created page with "Fuel cell electric vehicles, or FCEVs for short, are vehicles powered by hydrogen gas. The fuel cell component takes in hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2 from the air), and produces electricity to power the motor. The only exhaust is water vapor (H2O). ==Viability== It's '''uncertain''' whether this can be scaled up enough to replace even half of gasoline-powered vehicles. Potential issues to be dealt with: {|class="wikitable" |#In..."

New page

Fuel cell [[electric vehicles]], or FCEVs for short, are vehicles powered by [[hydrogen gas]]. The fuel cell component takes in hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2 from the air), and produces electricity to power the motor. The only exhaust is water vapor (H2O).

==Viability==
It's '''uncertain''' whether this can be scaled up enough to replace even half of gasoline-powered vehicles.

Potential issues to be dealt with:
{|class="wikitable"
|[[#Inefficient compared to batteries]]
|Unavoidable problem
|-
|[[#Rare minerals in the fuel cell]]
|Manageable
|-
|Energy to manufacture the fuel cell
|Research needed
|-
|Safety
|Mostly solved
|-
|Storing enough fuel in the vehicle
|Solved
|}

==Inefficient compared to batteries==

Whether fuel cells or batteries, the intention is to power vehicles with green electricity.
* [[electrolysis|Converting energy to hydrogen]], then back to electricity again - is best-case only 40 to 48% efficient. {{x|80% efficiency for hydrogen production, multiplied by 50% to 60% efficiency for the best fuel cells}}
* Whereas charging/discharging a [[lithium-ion]] battery - is 80% to 90% efficient.
In other words, with fuel-cell vehicles we would need twice as much green electricity!

It's already hard enough to meet [[energy demand]] with renewables as it is (hence most [[energy]] comes from [[fossil fuels]] currently). Hydrogen vehicles would make it somewhat harder. The good news is it's still more efficient than combustion engine vehicles (no matter the fuel).



==Rare minerals in the fuel cell==
Inside a fuel cell, there are surfaces coated in a thin layer of platinum, palladium, rhodium, and/or iridium. These are called ''platinum-group metals'' (PGMs) and are extremely scarce. PGMs are needed as a catalyst to make the hydrogen and oxygen to react properly.

The same metals are also in the [[wikipedia:catalytic converter|catalytic converter]] of gasoline and diesel vehicles, but in lesser quantities. A catalytic converter has about 3 to 7 grams of PGMs, while a fuel cell vehicle has 30 to 60 grams{{x|Some scientists are working on reducing this amount, but it's hard to say how much progress can (or will) be made.}}.

If all vehicles were fuel cell-based,
* Global [[Term:mineral reserves|mineral reserves]] would ''just barely'' be enough to meet the demand for PGMs.
* The mining would take awhile.
* It helps that PGMs can be recycled from old vehicle catalytic converters.

Some relevant calculations:
{{calc
|(toyota_mirai.pgm - catalytic_converter.pgm) * world.cars
|% pgm.reserves
|new_pgm_needed
}}
{{calc
|new_pgm_needed
|years pgm.mine_production
}}
^ Math will be fixed soon.

==See also==
* [[Hydrogen combustion vehicles]]
* [[Green hydrogen]]