Archive:000/Hydrogen gas - Revision history

Elie: Elie moved page Hydrogen gas to Archive:000/Hydrogen gas without leaving a redirect: Huge_refactor

2024-10-26T20:29:47Z

Elie moved page Hydrogen gas to Archive:000/Hydrogen gas without leaving a redirect: Huge_refactor

← Older revision	Revision as of 15:29, 26 October 2024
(No difference)

Elie: /* Shelf life / storage */

2024-04-20T19:22:42Z

Shelf life / storage

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:22, 20 April 2024
Line 327:		Line 327:
	Chemically, hydrogen is the lightest gas (smallest molecules). This makes it harder to store than other gases, but there are still ways. {{en}}		Chemically, hydrogen is the lightest gas (smallest molecules). This makes it harder to store than other gases, but there are still ways. {{en}}

			{{pn-block\|
			read later: some relevant info might be found in: https://europe.autonews.com/suppliers/faurecia-gets-213m-euros-eu-french-hydrogen-project
			<br />basic question: can pressurized hydrogen be stored in (perhaps modified) steel tanks, or will it corrode all but the most expensive materials?
			}}

	==Pipelines==		==Pipelines==

Elie at 17:55, 20 April 2024

2024-04-20T17:55:26Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:55, 20 April 2024
Line 323:		Line 323:
	In cases where electrolysis is done in weather below 0°C, such as beside wind turbines in cold parts of the world during winter, losses may be somewhat worse. {{x\|The water has to be liquid (not frozen) while it's being electrolyzed to become hydrogen and oxygen. Heating takes energy; then again, maybe the waste heat of electrolysis would already be enough to keep the water liquid. In theory it can: For any amount of H<sub>2</sub>O electrolyzed, the waste heat is 8 times more than what it takes to melt that amount of ice: {{p2\|'''[See calculation]'''\|{{calc\|hydrogen_gas.specific_energy * water.hydrogen_by_mass * (100% - electrolysis.efficiency)\|water_fusion_heat}} {{pn\|Maybe this belongs on a separate page called "hydrogen gas production in winter weather"?}} }}. For this to work, the hydrogen production system would have to be well-insulated from the weather. }} {{npn}}		In cases where electrolysis is done in weather below 0°C, such as beside wind turbines in cold parts of the world during winter, losses may be somewhat worse. {{x\|The water has to be liquid (not frozen) while it's being electrolyzed to become hydrogen and oxygen. Heating takes energy; then again, maybe the waste heat of electrolysis would already be enough to keep the water liquid. In theory it can: For any amount of H<sub>2</sub>O electrolyzed, the waste heat is 8 times more than what it takes to melt that amount of ice: {{p2\|'''[See calculation]'''\|{{calc\|hydrogen_gas.specific_energy * water.hydrogen_by_mass * (100% - electrolysis.efficiency)\|water_fusion_heat}} {{pn\|Maybe this belongs on a separate page called "hydrogen gas production in winter weather"?}} }}. For this to work, the hydrogen production system would have to be well-insulated from the weather. }} {{npn}}

	==Shelf life==		==Shelf life / storage==
	{{sum\|{{rn}} }}		{{sum\|{{rn}} }}
	Chemically, hydrogen is the lightest gas (smallest molecules). This makes it harder to store than other gases, but there are still ways. {{en}}		Chemically, hydrogen is the lightest gas (smallest molecules). This makes it harder to store than other gases, but there are still ways. {{en}}

Elie at 22:57, 22 March 2024

2024-03-22T22:57:09Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:57, 22 March 2024
Line 394:		Line 394:
	Hydrogen is not directly a greenhouse gas, but it slows the breakdown of atmospheric methane (which ''is'' a greenhouse gas). Therefore hydrogen gas leaks do have ''some'' effect on warming the climate. {{qn}}		Hydrogen is not directly a greenhouse gas, but it slows the breakdown of atmospheric methane (which ''is'' a greenhouse gas). Therefore hydrogen gas leaks do have ''some'' effect on warming the climate. {{qn}}
	-->		-->


	==Color terminology==		==Color terminology==

Elie: /* Atmospheric losses */

2024-03-22T22:56:35Z

Atmospheric losses

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:56, 22 March 2024
Line 388:		Line 388:
	</tab>		</tab>
	<!--		<!--
	TODO: ~~gather more info and then~~ add ~~this~~ heading:		TODO: compare the hydrogen losses to the hydrogen the earth gains from solar winds

			TODO: add new heading:
	==Climate effects of leaks==		==Climate effects of leaks==
	Hydrogen is not directly a greenhouse gas, but it slows the breakdown of atmospheric methane (which ''is'' a greenhouse gas). Therefore hydrogen gas leaks do have ''some'' effect on warming the climate. {{qn}}		Hydrogen is not directly a greenhouse gas, but it slows the breakdown of atmospheric methane (which ''is'' a greenhouse gas). Therefore hydrogen gas leaks do have ''some'' effect on warming the climate. {{qn}}
	-->		-->


	==Color terminology==		==Color terminology==

Elie: /* How much would be needed, if hydrogen were scaled up? */

2023-11-16T06:04:58Z

How much would be needed, if hydrogen were scaled up?

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:04, 16 November 2023
Line 125:		Line 125:
	}}		}}
	{{dp		{{dp
	\|<nowiki>pgm.~~mine_production~~</nowiki>		\|<nowiki>pgm.status_quo_mining_production</nowiki>
	\|<nowiki>platinum.mine_production + palladium.mine_production</nowiki>		\|<nowiki>platinum.mine_production + palladium.mine_production</nowiki>
	\|<nowiki>Global production of platinum-group metals (PGMs) from mining (status quo)</nowiki>		\|<nowiki>Global production of platinum-group metals (PGMs) from mining (status quo)</nowiki>
Line 222:		Line 222:
	}}		}}
	<!-- --- END OF DATA POINTS ---		<!-- --- END OF DATA POINTS ---

	-->		-->
	~~<tab name="General requirements" collapsed>~~		'''Scenario 1:''' If hydrogen gas (from wind power) were to directly replace all fossil fuels (this implies that people would drive [[hydrogen combustion vehicles]]):
	~~{{minor\|The mass of PGMs needed is proportional to~~ '~~'peak power~~'':}}
	* For electrolysis systems, the maximum '''~~rate of~~ hydrogen ~~production''' {{light\|is limited by the amount of PGMs}}.~~
	* For fuel cell vehicles~~, the '''horsepower''' {{light\|is limited by the amount of PGMs}}.~~
	** {{minor\|But the vehicle can still achieve ''short bursts'' of higher horsepower if there's a battery or supercapacitor in parallel with the fuel cell.}}
	~~</tab>~~

	~~'''Scenario 1:''' If hydrogen gas (from wind power) were to directly replace all fossil fuels (this implies that people would drive [[hydrogen combustion vehicles]]):~~		<tab name="SEE MATHS" collapsed>
	<tab name="~~(see maths)~~">
	{{calc		{{calc
	\|electrolysis.pgm_by_power / electrolysis.efficiency / wind.capacity_factor * fossil_fuels.consumption		\|electrolysis.pgm_by_power / electrolysis.efficiency / wind.capacity_factor * fossil_fuels.consumption
Line 239:		Line 234:
	{{calc		{{calc
	\|...		\|...
	\|years pgm.~~mine_production~~		\|years pgm.status_quo_mining_production
			\|\|\|'''PGMs needed for hydrogen gas production.'''
	}}		}}
	</tab>		</tab>

	The amount of PGMs needed is pretty reasonable (16% of mineral reserves) ~~- but we~~'d have to ~~start mining~~ a lot faster than the status quo (and ~~find some way to~~ do it ''without'' exploitative [[labor]]). {{npn}}		* The amount of PGMs needed is pretty reasonable '''(16% of mineral reserves)'''. We'd still have to mine for PGMs a lot faster than the status-quo (and do it ''without'' exploitative [[labor]]). {{npn}}

	To prevent NOx emissions ([[#NOx emissions\|see section below]]), hydrogen combustion vehicles need ''catalytic converters'', just like gasoline or diesel vehicles do. Catalytic converters ''also'' contain some PGMs, which could be obtained by recycling old catalytic converters from fossil-fuel vehicles.		{{minor\|To prevent NOx emissions ([[#NOx emissions\|see section below]]), hydrogen combustion vehicles need ''catalytic converters'', just like gasoline or diesel vehicles do. Catalytic converters ''also'' contain some PGMs, which could be obtained by recycling old catalytic converters from fossil-fuel vehicles.}}


	'''Scenario 2:''' If all vehicles were hydrogen [[fuel cell vehicles]] instead:		'''Scenario 2:''' If all vehicles were hydrogen [[fuel cell vehicles]] instead:
	<tab name="~~(see maths)~~">
			<tab name="SEE MATHS" collapsed>
	{{calc		{{calc
	\|(toyota_mirai.pgm - catalytic_converter.pgm) * world.cars * commercial_factor		\|(toyota_mirai.pgm - catalytic_converter.pgm) * world.cars * commercial_factor
Line 257:		Line 254:
	{{calc		{{calc
	\|...		\|...
	\|years pgm.~~mine_production~~		\|years pgm.status_quo_mining_production
	\|\|\|Fuel-cell vehicles don't ~~need~~ catalytic converters, but a fuel cell contains far more PGMs than a catalytic converter.		\|\|\|'''PGMs needed to make the fuel-cell vehicles.'''{{minor\|Fuel-cell vehicles don't have catalytic converters, but a fuel cell contains far more PGMs than a catalytic converter.}}
	}}		}}
	</tab>		</tab>
Line 264:		Line 261:
	Maybe I should refactor [[template:calc]] to allow for presenting one calculation in multiple units? This would involve some design decisions.		Maybe I should refactor [[template:calc]] to allow for presenting one calculation in multiple units? This would involve some design decisions.
	-->		-->
	~~One benefit of fuel cell vehicles is that they're more energy-efficient than combustion vehicles (i.e. less hydrogen used per kilometer driven).~~

	The problem is, fuel cells would need 7 times ~~the~~ PGMs of Scenario 1 ~~{{light\|~~(estimated)}}. Perhaps too much to be scalable. And this is true even though we factored in the recycling of old catalytic converters ~~(which have less than 1/10th the PGMs of a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, on average)~~.		* One benefit of fuel cell vehicles is that they're more energy-efficient than combustion vehicles (i.e. less hydrogen used per kilometer driven).

			* The problem is, the fuel cells alone would need '''7 times more''' PGMs mined than Scenario 1 (estimated). Perhaps too much to be scalable. And this is true ''even though'' we factored in the recycling of old catalytic converters.


			<tab name="General principles" collapsed>
			{{minor\|The mass of PGMs needed is proportional to ''peak power'':}}
			* For electrolysis systems, the maximum '''rate of hydrogen production''' {{light\|is limited by the amount of PGMs}}.
			* For fuel cell vehicles, the '''horsepower''' {{light\|is limited by the amount of PGMs}}.
			** {{minor\|But the vehicle can still achieve ''short bursts'' of higher horsepower if there's a battery or supercapacitor in parallel with the fuel cell.}}
			</tab>
	<tab name="More notes on these estimates" collapsed>		<tab name="More notes on these estimates" collapsed>
	More musings about the calculations above:		More musings about the calculations above:

Elie: /* Energy losses */

2023-11-16T05:10:33Z

Energy losses

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:10, 16 November 2023
Line 294:		Line 294:
	{{pn\|TODO: Add calculation: Knowing the losses, is there still enough [[land]] for wind-generated hydrogen gas were to directly replace all fossil fuels, in principle?}}		{{pn\|TODO: Add calculation: Knowing the losses, is there still enough [[land]] for wind-generated hydrogen gas were to directly replace all fossil fuels, in principle?}}

			{{dp
			\|<nowiki>hydrogen_gas.specific_energy</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>120 MJ/kg</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki></nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>"By contrast, hydrogen has an energy density of approximately 120 MJ/kg , almost three times more than diesel or gasoline. In electrical terms, the energy density of hydrogen is equal to 33.6 kWh of usable energy per kg, versus diesel which only holds about 12–14 kWh per kg."</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			Oct 2, 2019</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			Run on Less with Hydrogen Fuel Cells - RMI</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			rmi.org › Blog </nowiki>
			}}
			{{dp
			\|<nowiki>water.hydrogen_by_mass</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>hydrogen2 / (hydrogen2 + oxygen)</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>What percent of water's mass is hydrogen atoms</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>It's about 11%. Expressed using the calculator's built-in chemistry constants (atomic masses).</nowiki>
			}}
			{{dp
			\|<nowiki>electrolysis.efficiency</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>80%</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>Energy efficiency of producing hydrogen & oxygen gases from water</nowiki>
			\|<nowiki>Hydrogen made by the electrolysis of water is now cost-competitive ...</nowiki><br /><nowiki>
			www.carboncommentary.com › blog › hydrogen-made-by-the-electrolysis... </nowiki>
			}}
			In cases where electrolysis is done in weather below 0°C, such as beside wind turbines in cold parts of the world during winter, losses may be somewhat worse. {{x\|The water has to be liquid (not frozen) while it's being electrolyzed to become hydrogen and oxygen. Heating takes energy; then again, maybe the waste heat of electrolysis would already be enough to keep the water liquid. In theory it can: For any amount of H<sub>2</sub>O electrolyzed, the waste heat is 8 times more than what it takes to melt that amount of ice: {{p2\|'''[See calculation]'''\|{{calc\|hydrogen_gas.specific_energy * water.hydrogen_by_mass * (100% - electrolysis.efficiency)\|water_fusion_heat}} {{pn\|Maybe this belongs on a separate page called "hydrogen gas production in winter weather"?}} }}. For this to work, the hydrogen production system would have to be well-insulated from the weather. }} {{npn}}

	==Shelf life==		==Shelf life==

Elie at 00:37, 7 November 2023

2023-11-07T00:37:21Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:37, 6 November 2023
Line 8:		Line 8:


	'''''This page is about how hydrogen gas could be used ~~with~~ renewable [[energy]].'''''		'''''This page is about how hydrogen gas could be used in an all-renewable [[energy]] scenario.'''''
	{{considerations}}		{{considerations}}

Line 37:		Line 37:

	==Energy sources==		==Energy sources==
	'''Main use-case:''' Storing [[wind]] ~~power~~.<br />		'''Main use-case:''' Storing surplus [[wind power]].<br />
	Here's why:		Here's why:
	* Wind power is far more intermittent than [[solar]]. Whereas solar follows a day/night cycle, windy and not-so-windy seasons can last for ''months'' at a time.		* Wind power is far more intermittent than [[solar]]. Whereas solar follows a day/night cycle, windy and not-so-windy seasons can last for ''months'' at a time.
Line 51:		Line 51:

	==Status quo==		==Status quo==
			* [[Wind power]] is not in surplus yet {{light\|(in most parts of the world)}}.
	* Most hydrogen today is '''produced''' from [[fossil fuels]] ([[natural gas]]) via [//wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming steam reforming]. The carbon emissions are as high as burning the natural gas itself.		* Most hydrogen today is '''produced''' from [[fossil fuels]] ([[natural gas]]) via [//wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming steam reforming]. The carbon emissions are as high as burning the natural gas itself.
	* Most hydrogen today is '''used''' in producing [[fertilizer]].		* Most hydrogen today is '''used''' in producing [[fertilizer]].
Line 312:		Line 313:
	==NOx emissions==		==NOx emissions==
	{{sum\|Manageable}}		{{sum\|Manageable}}
	Burning hydrogen gas in air produces nitrogen oxides (NOx) in the same amount as burning gasoline or any other fuel. This happens because air is 78% nitrogen gas and 21% oxygen gas - any high temperature will cause some of the nitrogen to react with the oxygen. NOx gases ~~are~~ [[~~greenhouse gases~~]].		Burning hydrogen gas in air produces nitrogen oxides (NOx) in the same amount as burning gasoline or any other fuel. This happens because air is 78% nitrogen gas and 21% oxygen gas - any high temperature will cause some of the nitrogen to react with the oxygen. NOx gases contribute to [[climate change]]. {{qn}}

	For [[hydrogen combustion vehicles]], this problem can be solved the same way it is for gasoline or diesel combustion: The vehicle has a ''catalytic converter'' to convert these gases into harmless substances. This requires some platinum-group metals ([[#Platinum-group metals\|see section above]]).		For [[hydrogen combustion vehicles]], this problem can be solved the same way it is for gasoline or diesel combustion: The vehicle has a ''catalytic converter'' to convert these gases into harmless substances. This requires some platinum-group metals ([[#Platinum-group metals\|see section above]]).
Line 358:		Line 359:
	{{minor\|Side note: For the same amount of energy, this is still a lot more hydrogen loss than [[nuclear fusion]] of hydrogen atoms.}}		{{minor\|Side note: For the same amount of energy, this is still a lot more hydrogen loss than [[nuclear fusion]] of hydrogen atoms.}}
	</tab>		</tab>
			<!--
			TODO: gather more info and then add this heading:
			==Climate effects of leaks==
			Hydrogen is not directly a greenhouse gas, but it slows the breakdown of atmospheric methane (which ''is'' a greenhouse gas). Therefore hydrogen gas leaks do have ''some'' effect on warming the climate. {{qn}}
			-->


Line 380:		Line 386:
	==See also==		==See also==
	* [[Methane cracking]] {{light\|- another way to produce hydrogen gas. Not worthwhile currently, but ''in theory'' the right tech could maybe change that.}}		* [[Methane cracking]] {{light\|- another way to produce hydrogen gas. Not worthwhile currently, but ''in theory'' the right tech could maybe change that.}}
			* [[Energy storage]]

Elie at 05:17, 5 November 2023

2023-11-05T05:17:49Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:17, 5 November 2023
Line 57:		Line 57:
	==Platinum-group metals==		==Platinum-group metals==
	{{sum\|Problem in some cases}}		{{sum\|Problem in some cases}}
	'''Tl;dr:''' [[~~Fuel~~ cell vehicles]] '''would''' be a problem. ~~[[Wind]]-based hydrogen~~ production would '''not''' be.		'''Tl;dr:''' Too many [[fuel cell vehicles]] '''would''' be a problem. Hydrogen production would '''not''' be.


Line 314:		Line 314:
	Burning hydrogen gas in air produces nitrogen oxides (NOx) in the same amount as burning gasoline or any other fuel. This happens because air is 78% nitrogen gas and 21% oxygen gas - any high temperature will cause some of the nitrogen to react with the oxygen. NOx gases are [[greenhouse gases]].		Burning hydrogen gas in air produces nitrogen oxides (NOx) in the same amount as burning gasoline or any other fuel. This happens because air is 78% nitrogen gas and 21% oxygen gas - any high temperature will cause some of the nitrogen to react with the oxygen. NOx gases are [[greenhouse gases]].

	For [[hydrogen combustion vehicles]], this problem can be solved the same way it is for gasoline or diesel combustion: The vehicle has a ''catalytic converter'' to convert these gases into harmless substances. This requires some platinum-group metals ([[#~~platinum~~-group metals\|see section above]]).		For [[hydrogen combustion vehicles]], this problem can be solved the same way it is for gasoline or diesel combustion: The vehicle has a ''catalytic converter'' to convert these gases into harmless substances. This requires some platinum-group metals ([[#Platinum-group metals\|see section above]]).


	==Atmospheric losses==		==Atmospheric losses==
	{{sum\|Very minor}}		{{sum\|Very minor}}
	'''Concern:''' When hydrogen gas leaks into the atmosphere, it's so light that it ends up being lost forever into outer space via [//wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeans_escape Jeans escape]. If this goes on for ''long enough'', could Earth lose enough hydrogen that it would harm ecosystems or deplete the global water supply? How long would that take exactly?		'''Concern:''' When hydrogen gas leaks into the atmosphere, it's so light that it ends up being lost forever into outer space via [//wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeans_escape Jeans escape]. If this goes on for ''long enough'', could Earth lose enough hydrogen that this would harm ecosystems or deplete the global water supply? How long would that take exactly?

	'''Answer:''' If we assume:		'''Answer:''' If we assume:
Line 325:		Line 325:
	* that losing '''0.1%''' of the world's oceans would be enough to be a problem,		* that losing '''0.1%''' of the world's oceans would be enough to be a problem,
	* that hydrogen gas would be replacing '''all''' fossil fuels, by energy,		* that hydrogen gas would be replacing '''all''' fossil fuels, by energy,
	Then it would take a '''million''' years to have even a minor effect on the ecosystems:		Then it would take more than a '''million''' years to have even a minor effect on the ecosystems:

	<tab name="(see maths)">		<tab name="(see maths)">

Elie: Major edit (multiple sections)

2023-11-05T04:26:32Z

Major edit (multiple sections)

Show changes