Decarbonize the energy supply - Revision history

Elie at 05:59, 3 December 2025

2025-12-03T05:59:43Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:59, 3 December 2025
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	** <small>[[solar panels made of abundant materials\|''See discussion on alternatives to this.'']]</small>		** <small>[[solar panels made of abundant materials\|''See discussion on alternatives to this.'']]</small>

	* Batteries [[How much short-term energy storage for solar?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}		* Batteries [[How much short-term energy storage for solar?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}} {{talk\|Re-work this section and include links like [[Can rooftop solar alone provide enough heating and cooling?]]}}
	** But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[How much seasonal energy storage?\|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]].		** But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[How much seasonal energy storage?\|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]].
	*** <small>[[What could provide enough seasonal energy storage?\|''See discussion on other energy storage types - whether any could provide enough capacity.'']]</small>		*** <small>[[What could provide enough seasonal energy storage?\|''See discussion on other energy storage types - whether any could provide enough capacity.'']]</small>

Elie at 04:47, 13 April 2025

2025-04-13T04:47:05Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:47, 13 April 2025
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	[[File:~~Energy sources pie chart~~.png\|thumb\|'''Status quo:''' The vast majority of the world's energy comes from fossil fuels. Don't be <s>fooled</s> misled by countries claiming "most of our electricity is renewable". Electricity is only one piece of the energy pie. Most cars & trucks are not electric. Most industries are not fully electric. When you look at the big picture, it's clear that we still have a long way to go.]]<!-- TALK: is there a way to make sure this image description doesn't become the intro to the page when viewed on mobile?		[[File:energy-usage-by-source.png\|thumb\|'''Status quo:''' The vast majority of the world's energy comes from fossil fuels. Don't be <s>fooled</s> misled by countries claiming "most of our electricity is renewable". Electricity is only one piece of the energy pie. Most cars & trucks are not electric. Most industries are not fully electric. When you look at the big picture, it's clear that we still have a long way to go.]]<!-- TALK: is there a way to make sure this image description doesn't become the intro to the page when viewed on mobile?
	-->		-->
	How to produce enough {{p2\|energy\|This includes more than just the status-quo of electricity production. It also includes all the additional electricity that would be needed to replace fossil fuels in vehicles and in industries.}} (for the world) without burning [[fossil fuels]]?		How to produce enough {{p2\|energy\|This includes more than just the status-quo of electricity production. It also includes all the additional electricity that would be needed to replace fossil fuels in vehicles and in industries.}} (for the world) without burning [[fossil fuels]]?

Elie at 07:49, 8 November 2024

2024-11-08T07:49:16Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:49, 8 November 2024
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			[[File:Energy sources pie chart.png\|thumb\|'''Status quo:''' The vast majority of the world's energy comes from fossil fuels. Don't be <s>fooled</s> misled by countries claiming "most of our electricity is renewable". Electricity is only one piece of the energy pie. Most cars & trucks are not electric. Most industries are not fully electric. When you look at the big picture, it's clear that we still have a long way to go.]]<!-- TALK: is there a way to make sure this image description doesn't become the intro to the page when viewed on mobile?
			-->
	How to produce enough {{p2\|energy\|This includes more than just the status-quo of electricity production. It also includes all the additional electricity that would be needed to replace fossil fuels in vehicles and in industries.}} (for the world) without burning [[fossil fuels]]?		How to produce enough {{p2\|energy\|This includes more than just the status-quo of electricity production. It also includes all the additional electricity that would be needed to replace fossil fuels in vehicles and in industries.}} (for the world) without burning [[fossil fuels]]?

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	* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main energy sources in ''most'' parts of the world.		* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main energy sources in ''most'' parts of the world.
	** Most people don't live near regions suitable for [[hydropower]] or [[geothermal power]]. {{talk\|TODO: link to discussions about what regions they ''are'' suitable}}		** Most people don't live near regions suitable for [[hydropower]] or [[geothermal power]]. {{talk\|TODO: link to discussions about what regions they ''are'' suitable}}
	** [[Biofuels]] are a no-go, because they cause global [[hunger]] and [[deforestation]].  [[Biomass waste]] is a fine alternative, but its ~~global~~ production rate is [[How much biomass waste is there?\|fundamentally small]] compared to the fossil fuels we're trying to replace.		** [[Biofuels]] are a no-go, because they cause global [[hunger]] and [[deforestation]].  [[Biomass waste]] is a fine alternative, but its production rate is [[How much biomass waste is there?\|fundamentally small]] compared to the fossil fuels we're trying to replace.
	<!-- ALT:** [[Biofuels]] cause global [[hunger]] and [[deforestation]], unless only [[biomass waste]] is used (which is in [[How much biomass waste is there?\|very limited supply]]).-->		<!-- ALT:** [[Biofuels]] cause global [[hunger]] and [[deforestation]], unless only [[biomass waste]] is used (which is in [[How much biomass waste is there?\|very limited supply]]).-->
	<!-- ALT:** Global [[biomass waste]] production is fundamentally small compared to the fossil fuel energy we're trying to replace.-->		<!-- ALT:** Global [[biomass waste]] production is fundamentally small compared to the fossil fuel energy we're trying to replace.-->

	* Most solar panels today would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[solar panel minerals\|too many scarce minerals in them]].		* Most solar panels today would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[solar panel minerals\|too many scarce minerals in them]].
	** ~~''See discussion on''~~ [[solar panels made of abundant materials\|alternatives to this]].		** <small>[[solar panels made of abundant materials\|''See discussion on alternatives to this.'']]</small>

	* Batteries [[How much short-term energy storage for solar?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}		* Batteries [[How much short-term energy storage for solar?\|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x\|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}
	** But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[How much seasonal energy storage?\|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]].		** But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[How much seasonal energy storage?\|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]].
	*** ~~''See discussion on''~~ [[What could provide enough seasonal energy storage?\|other energy storage types ~~and~~ whether any could provide enough capacity]].		*** <small>[[What could provide enough seasonal energy storage?\|''See discussion on other energy storage types - whether any could provide enough capacity.'']]</small>

	<br />More discussions:		<br />More discussions:
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	==More discussions==		==More discussions==
	~~{{empty}}~~		* [[How much electricity would it take?]]
	~~{{talk\|TODO~~: People ~~also~~ have other concerns about renewables ~~and~~ energy storage. I need to direct readers to pages that address those concerns.}}		<!-- TALK: People probably have other concerns about renewables, energy storage, etc. I need to direct readers to pages that address those concerns. This section might be a good place to put links. -->

	==See also==		==See also==
	* [[Phase out disposable plastic]] {{talk\|Should add somewhere that besides energy & plastic, there are other uses of fossil fuels. Most of these uses '''do not''' need to be phased out (and they are also a '''relatively small fraction''' of the world's fossil fuel consumption).<br /><br />This talking point is important for debunking memes about "where would we be without oil!" etc.}}		* [[Phase out disposable plastic]] {{talk\|Should add somewhere that besides energy & plastic, there are other uses of fossil fuels. Most of these uses '''do not''' need to be phased out (and they are also a '''relatively small fraction''' of the world's fossil fuel consumption).<br /><br />This talking point is important for debunking memes about "where would we be without oil!" etc.}}

Elie: Created page with "How to produce enough {{p2|energy|This includes more than just the status-quo of electricity production. It also includes all the additional electricity that would be needed to replace fossil fuels in vehicles and in industries.}} (for the world) without burning fossil fuels? {{minor|''This page is about the ongoing challenges involved.''}} ==The '''renewables''' approach {{light|(+ energy storage)}}== * Solar & wind power would have to be the main energy s..."

2024-10-26T23:11:46Z

Created page with "How to produce enough {{p2|energy|This includes more than just the status-quo of electricity production. It also includes all the additional electricity that would be needed to replace fossil fuels in vehicles and in industries.}} (for the world) without burning fossil fuels? {{minor|''This page is about the ongoing challenges involved.''}} ==The '''renewables''' approach {{light|(+ energy storage)}}== * Solar & wind power would have to be the main energy s..."

New page

How to produce enough {{p2|energy|This includes more than just the status-quo of electricity production. It also includes all the additional electricity that would be needed to replace fossil fuels in vehicles and in industries.}} (for the world) without burning [[fossil fuels]]?

{{minor|''This page is about the ongoing challenges involved.''}}

==The '''renewables''' approach {{light|(+ energy storage)}}==
* [[Solar]] & [[wind power]] would have to be the main energy sources in ''most'' parts of the world.
** Most people don't live near regions suitable for [[hydropower]] or [[geothermal power]]. {{talk|TODO: link to discussions about what regions they ''are'' suitable}}
** [[Biofuels]] are a no-go, because they cause global [[hunger]] and [[deforestation]].  [[Biomass waste]] is a fine alternative, but its global production rate is [[How much biomass waste is there?|fundamentally small]] compared to the fossil fuels we're trying to replace.



* Most solar panels today would probably be '''unsustainable''' or even impossible to scale up, due to having [[solar panel minerals|too many scarce minerals in them]].
** ''See discussion on'' [[solar panels made of abundant materials|alternatives to this]].

* Batteries [[How much short-term energy storage for solar?|''might'' be scalable enough]] to smooth out the '''day/night''' cycle of solar. {{x|Best bet would be either [[sodium-ion]] or [[iron redox flow batteries]].}}
** But the '''seasonal''' fluctuations of wind & solar [[How much seasonal energy storage?|probably need ''far more'' energy storage capacity]].
*** ''See discussion on'' [[What could provide enough seasonal energy storage?|other energy storage types and whether any could provide enough capacity]].

 More discussions:
* [[Is there enough land to scale up wind power?]] (without causing significant ecological damage)?

==The '''nuclear''' approach==
Considering the different types of nuclear power, it seems that '''[[thorium power]]''' is the one with the least problems. Here's a comparison:

{|class='wikitable'
!rowspan='2' |Type of nuclear power
!colspan='3' |Problems if scaled up
|-
!Fuel scarcity
!Weapons proliferation
!Nuclear waste
|-
|[[Conventional nuclear power]] {{light|(status quo)}}
|{{rcell}} Problem
|Low risk
|{{rcell}} Problem
|-
|[[Conventional small nuclear reactors]]
|{{rcell}} Problem
|{{rcell}} High risk
|{{rcell}} Problem
|-
|[[Uranium-238 breeder reactors]] {{p|Additional benefit: Uranium-238 reactors would make use of existing nuclear waste, which has been left over from decades of conventional nuclear power.}}
|Abundant
|{{rcell}} High risk
|Almost none
|-
|[[Thorium-232 breeder reactors]]
|Abundant
|Low risk
|Almost none
|-
|[[Fusion]] (not viable yet)
|Abundant
|Low risk
|Almost none
|-
|colspan=4|{{minor|^ For more details, follow these links in the leftmost column.}}
|}

Actions / discussions / next steps:
* [[Why isn't thorium power a thing yet?]]
* [[Would small (shipping-container-sized) thorium reactors be viable?]]

=='''Vehicles''' {{light|- possible options}}==
===Battery-based electric vehicles (EVs)===
* Most EVs today use [[lithium-ion batteries (NMC type)]]. '''Scaling these up is''' [[Minerals if all vehicles were electric (NMC lithium-ion)|'''unsustainable''' due to the amount of '''cobalt''' in them]]. {{talk|Need to mention 3 issues about cobalt (put this on the linked page maybe): Child labor, scarcity, and the possibility of mining the ocean floor (since conventional mining wouldn't be able to produce enough to make all cars electric). All this would be even worse if cobalt isn't fully recovered in EV battery recycling.}}
** Best alternatives ([[types of EV batteries|so far]]) hold somewhat less of a charge (i.e. the vehicle gets less {{p2|range|"Range" refers to the distance the vehicle can travel after 1 full charge.}}). {{talk|TODO: Add to this page a simple comparison between NMC, LFP and sodium-ion, in terms of typical expected EV range.}}
*** [[LFP batteries]] are cobalt-free but still lithium-based. Lithium scarcity [[Minerals if all vehicles were electric (LFP batteries)|would be somewhat a problem]] but not as bad as cobalt.
*** '''[[Sodium-ion batteries]]''' are made from abundant materials - they don't have any mineral-scarcity problem ([[Do we know for sure that sodium-ion batteries avoid mineral scarcity?|probably]]). But they hold even less of a charge than LFP.
**** Sodium-ion batteries are [[status quo of sodium-ion batteries|quite new to the market]] (in 2024), and the hope is that they'll become a lot cheaper than existing batteries. That way, [[short-range EVs|EVs could be cheap and durable]], with the only tradeoff being the lack of range.{{qn}} Probably still good enough for city/suburban living.
*** For '''city buses''': LFP and sodium-ion are both perfectly fine. The {{p2|lower ''energy-per-weight''|i.e. the fact that more battery mass is needed to hold the same amount of electricity}} is not a problem, because buses need extra weight at the bottom anyway for stability.

 Actions/discussions:
* [[Next steps for sodium-ion batteries]] {{talk|Is it true that sodium-ion EVs are available in China already, and just not in North America? If sodium-ion batteries are on the market now, how does their cost compare to lithium-based batteries so far?}}
* [[How well are EV batteries recycled?]]

===Hydrogen-powered vehicles===
* [[Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles]] would be '''unsustainable''' to scale up, because of the [[PGMs required for hydrogen production vs for fuel cell vehicles|amount of platinum & palladium in the fuel cells]]. {{talk|This page needs to mention: Hydrogen ''production'' also requires these same metals but it [[PGMs required for hydrogen production vs for fuel cell vehicles|can be done with much less of them]] and thus could probably be done sustainably.}}
* [[Hydrogen combustion vehicles]] don't have this problem, but their fuel-efficiency is lower.{{qn}} {{talk|How bad would this be an issue if renewables or nuclear were to be the main energy sources?}} {{talk|Discussion needed: Estimate: How much hydrogen would have to be stored (stocked) at any given time, for the supply chain to work (let's say if it's all produced through nuclear power)? Probably a lot less than what it would take to smooth out the seasonality of renewables - I need to write a page explaining why.}}

===Ammonia-powered vehicles===
{{empty}} {{talk|Research needed: How does ammonia compare to hydrogen in terms of:{{pbr}}* Energy-efficiency of ammonia ''production''{{pbr}}* Energy-efficiency of ammonia ''fuel cells''{{pbr}}* Catalyst metals required in ammonia ''production'' '''and''' in ammonia ''fuel cells''. Which metals and how much of them?{{pbr}}* Storage (mass of container materials required per unit of energy stored){{pbr}} Note that this research is ''also'' needed for assessing the viability of using ammonia energy storage to smooth out the seasonal variations of renewables.}}

==More discussions==
{{empty}}
{{talk|TODO: People also have other concerns about renewables and energy storage. I need to direct readers to pages that address those concerns.}}

==See also==
* [[Phase out disposable plastic]] {{talk|Should add somewhere that besides energy & plastic, there are other uses of fossil fuels. Most of these uses '''do not''' need to be phased out (and they are also a '''relatively small fraction''' of the world's fossil fuel consumption). This talking point is important for debunking memes about "where would we be without oil!" etc.}}