Elie at 12:46, 23 July 2025

2025-07-23T12:46:45Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:46, 23 July 2025
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			<small>'''main idea:''' Everyone should have access to a bare minimum of essential stuff for free. You want more than that, you still gotta pay - there's still a market economy for everything beyond basic needs.</small>


	;what counts as a basic need?		;what counts as a basic need?
	* let's start with housing, clothes, food {{p\|and housing would of course include utilities like water, electricity and internet {{talk\|TO DO: link to a more elaborate description page, of a cheap reasonable comfortable standard of living}} }}		* let's start with housing, clothes, food {{p\|and housing would of course include utilities like water, electricity and internet {{talk\|TO DO: link to a more elaborate description page, of a cheap reasonable comfortable standard of living}} }}
	* also schooling and health care {{talk\|Status quo: Some countries already have this but it needs improvement. Also, maybe we should link to pages about how education could be redesigned, and how health care could be redesigned. And what actions/nextsteps various countries would need in any case}}		* also schooling and health care {{talk\|Status quo: Some countries already have this but it needs improvement. Also, maybe we should link to pages about how education could be redesigned, and how health care could be redesigned. And what actions/nextsteps various countries would need in any case}}

	;why not just socialize everything?		;why not just socialize everything?
	: You know when ~~free market enthusiasts~~ say that socialism is slavery - because "if goods are free, then people must be coerced to work for free to produce the goods"? Well that WOULD be true if ALL goods were socialized. On the other hand, if just a small subset of goods (the ''essential'' ones, roughly) are socialized, the goods can be produced without any forced labor at all! {{talk\|TO DO: add: 40hr/wk vs 7hr/wk model thought experiment. What society would you rather live in btw}}		: You know when capitalists say that socialism is slavery - because "if goods are free, then people must be coerced to work for free to produce the goods"? Well that WOULD be true if ALL goods were socialized. On the other hand, if just a small subset of goods (the ''essential'' ones, roughly) are socialized, the goods can be produced without any forced labor at all! {{talk\|TO DO: add: 40hr/wk vs 7hr/wk model thought experiment. What society would you rather live in btw}}

	;who would pay for it / how would it work ?		;who would pay for it / how would it work ?
	* {{pn\|TO DO: tax model, simple numbers compared to status quo US gov budget{{x\|link to new budget draft (use a "see also" popup icon?)}} }}		* {{pn\|TO DO: tax model, simple numbers compared to status quo US gov budget{{x\|link to new budget draft (use a "see also" popup icon?)}} }}
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	* housing can be diverse and have character, which barely impacts the costs btw {{talk\|TO DO: link to page with examples and brainstorming. See also: walkability}}		* housing can be diverse and have character, which barely impacts the costs btw {{talk\|TO DO: link to page with examples and brainstorming. See also: walkability}}
	* clothing too, lots of variety		* clothing too, lots of variety

			;but some people would just choose to not work?
			: Yes, and that's perfectly fine. Society doesn't need everyone working - and the people who work wouldn't have to work full time. It doesn't take ''that'' much labor to generate the basic goods that are socialized. {{talk\|TO DO: link to analysis / estimate}} Most of us would be better off if we had more free time! {{p\|See also: [[Make the internet less addictive]], so that people don't end up spending all their extra free time on doomscrolling lol}}

	<small><tab name="misc discussions">		<small><tab name="misc discussions">
	* environmental impact of certain food choices - too high to socialize? Then should we maybe only socialize [[cheap plant-based food]] (and design it to be nutritionally complete)? Also, soup kitchens or what?		* environmental impact of certain food choices - too high to socialize? Then should we maybe only socialize [[cheap plant-based food]] (and design it to be nutritionally complete)? Also, soup kitchens or what?
	* status quo economy is very good at producing lots of cheap ''clothes'', but not so good at producing lots of cheap ''housing''. So we need a different approach to socializing each. Btw we shouldn't have to rebuild all housing from scratch. Existing housing can provide most of it. How to fairly seize it from landlords? We can be harsh to big real estate companies, but that's very different from small homeowners who just rent out a room or two in the same house they live in		* status quo economy is very good at producing lots of cheap ''clothes'', but not so good at producing lots of cheap ''housing''. So we need a different approach to socializing each. Btw we shouldn't have to rebuild all housing from scratch. Existing housing can provide most of it. How to fairly seize it from landlords? We can be harsh to big real estate companies, but that's very different from small homeowners who just rent out a room or two in the same house they live in
			* housing the homeless: "But what about people with such bad mental health issues that they'd ruin any housing they live in (write on walls, make too much noise for neighbors, etc)?": Design special homes for that. If you make your place ugly you still have to live in it, we're not gonna repaint the walls for ya. It's still a roof over your head
			* same goes for clothes. You get new ones but not very often{{qn}}{{talk\|for growing kids, i guess there could be some system to hand clothes down if the clothes are still good; discuss?}} If you ruin your clothes you still have to live with them - or buy more with your own money. Remember, it's still a market economy for everything beyond the socialized basics
	* how does this compare to universal basic income?		* how does this compare to universal basic income?
	** [[UBI]] has inflation issues, potentially		** [[UBI]] has inflation issues, potentially
	** parents ~~who have~~ bad enough ~~addictions may still end up starving their kids~~		** some kids could still starve on UBI (or even be homeless) if the parents are bad enough at managing money.
	* socialized basic needs helps prevent [[overworking]]. People won't have to work their butts off to afford basic stuff		* socialized basic needs helps prevent [[overworking]]. People won't have to work their butts off to afford basic stuff
	* this is aligned with the USA's "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". Fulfilling basic needs is required for the ''life'' part. And then people will have more free time (more liberty) to pursue happiness btw		* this is aligned with the USA's "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". Fulfilling basic needs is required for the ''life'' part. And then people will have more free time (more liberty) to pursue happiness btw
	</tab></small>		</tab></small>

Elie: Created page with ";what counts as a basic need? * let's start with housing, clothes, food {{p|and housing would of course include utilities like water, electricity and internet {{talk|TO DO: link to a more elaborate description page, of a cheap reasonable comfortable standard of living}} }} * also schooling and health care {{talk|Status quo: Some countries already have this but it needs improvement. Also, maybe we should link to pages about how education could be redesigned, and how healt..."

2025-07-23T12:06:29Z

Created page with ";what counts as a basic need? * let's start with housing, clothes, food {{p|and housing would of course include utilities like water, electricity and internet {{talk|TO DO: link to a more elaborate description page, of a cheap reasonable comfortable standard of living}} }} * also schooling and health care {{talk|Status quo: Some countries already have this but it needs improvement. Also, maybe we should link to pages about how education could be redesigned, and how healt..."

New page

;what counts as a basic need?
* let's start with housing, clothes, food {{p|and housing would of course include utilities like water, electricity and internet {{talk|TO DO: link to a more elaborate description page, of a cheap reasonable comfortable standard of living}} }}
* also schooling and health care {{talk|Status quo: Some countries already have this but it needs improvement. Also, maybe we should link to pages about how education could be redesigned, and how health care could be redesigned. And what actions/nextsteps various countries would need in any case}}
;why not just socialize everything?
: You know when free market enthusiasts say that socialism is slavery - because "if goods are free, then people must be coerced to work for free to produce the goods"? Well that WOULD be true if ALL goods were socialized. On the other hand, if just a small subset of goods (the ''essential'' ones, roughly) are socialized, the goods can be produced without any forced labor at all! {{talk|TO DO: add: 40hr/wk vs 7hr/wk model thought experiment. What society would you rather live in btw}}
;who would pay for it / how would it work ?
* {{pn|TO DO: tax model, simple numbers compared to status quo US gov budget{{x|link to new budget draft (use a "see also" popup icon?)}} }}
;but wouldn't everything be the same and boring? No!
* housing can be diverse and have character, which barely impacts the costs btw {{talk|TO DO: link to page with examples and brainstorming. See also: walkability}}
* clothing too, lots of variety

<small><tab name="misc discussions">
* environmental impact of certain food choices - too high to socialize? Then should we maybe only socialize [[cheap plant-based food]] (and design it to be nutritionally complete)? Also, soup kitchens or what?
* status quo economy is very good at producing lots of cheap ''clothes'', but not so good at producing lots of cheap ''housing''. So we need a different approach to socializing each. Btw we shouldn't have to rebuild all housing from scratch. Existing housing can provide most of it. How to fairly seize it from landlords? We can be harsh to big real estate companies, but that's very different from small homeowners who just rent out a room or two in the same house they live in
* how does this compare to universal basic income?
** [[UBI]] has inflation issues, potentially
** parents who have bad enough addictions may still end up starving their kids
* socialized basic needs helps prevent [[overworking]]. People won't have to work their butts off to afford basic stuff
* this is aligned with the USA's "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". Fulfilling basic needs is required for the ''life'' part. And then people will have more free time (more liberty) to pursue happiness btw
</tab></small>

Socialize basic needs - Revision history

Elie at 12:46, 23 July 2025